Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

how do you recover from a foil out?

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Created by Sandman1221 2 months ago, 3 Nov 2020
Sandman1221
395 posts
3 Nov 2020 7:07AM
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When I foil out figured there was nothing to do but nose dive and crash, but today got hit with a big gust while foiling and went airborne (was hooked in) and for some reason I turned the nose hard upwind as I was falling and got the nose of the board to just flatten out as it hit the water and did not crash! Was so surprised I dropped the sail but I was still on the board. Now maybe it helped that the Goya Bolt 135 was 243 cm long, shorter board may be harder to land coming out of a foil out.
Was on an AFS Wind95 foil with a F800 wing, fairly high aspect and 1120 cm2.

LeeD
2126 posts
3 Nov 2020 7:37AM
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When breached, and you hear it, toss the rig forward and sheet in. You're going down anyways. Better to save it even if you drop
off foil.
Flipping my old Naish rear wing upside down helps keep the foil in line, so recoveries are much easier.

WillyWind
102 posts
3 Nov 2020 8:27AM
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I bend my knees and put as much weight in the back foot as I can. At least with the infinity 84 and a formula board, it works pretty well. Don't forget the 84 is a slow foil and has a huge area so when it foils out, the area of the foil is enough to make the board to go down "slowly" so I have time to react. Sometimes I can even hear the gurgling sound of the water and I can keep foiling.

With a much faster foil I guess there must be a trick or two which I don't know about it yet (only one outing with my IQFoil so far)

aeroegnr
75 posts
3 Nov 2020 8:32AM
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I think I foiled out for the first time (twice) this weekend on an i99. At least in those cases it was a very gentle drop and undramatic. However, I've seen some very harsh falls by the guys out here and I know it's coming for me one day. Actually, more like many days.

Sandman1221
395 posts
3 Nov 2020 8:36AM
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WillyWind said..
I bend my knees and put as much weight in the back foot as I can. At least with the infinity 84 and a formula board, it works pretty well. Don't forget the 84 is a slow foil and has a huge area so when it foils out, the area of the foil is enough to make the board to go down "slowly" so I have time to react. Sometimes I can even hear the gurgling sound of the water and I can keep foiling.

With a much faster foil I guess there must be a trick or two which I don't know about it yet (only one outing with my IQFoil so far)



I was on an AFS Wind95 with F800 wing, and I was going fast!

boardsurfr
WA, 1219 posts
3 Nov 2020 9:59AM
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Sandman1221 said..
Now maybe it helped that the Goya Bolt 135 was 243 cm long, shorter board may be harder to land coming out of a foil out.

I think that's right. On my slalom board that's a few cm longer than your Bolt, I can often recover. On a Blast that 14 cm shorter, it's harder. On my 6 ft 10 board, it's nearly impossible. The the nose rocker plays a big role, too. A good foil-specific nose rocker lets the front of the board touch down flat, giving you a chance to pop back up. My 6.10 just does not have much nose rocker, so it just knifes into the water and goes deep.
It would be interesting to hear from someone who has used slow and fast foils on the same board if speed helps the recovery.

LeeD
2126 posts
3 Nov 2020 10:27AM
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Well, I've breached the stock Naish 1220 maybe 15 times [slow learner], and the 600 sq cm maybe 3-4 times. Used 1220 around 95 days, used 600 maybe 15.
Hover 122 and 70 or 65 cm mast.
Feels about the same.
Flipped rear wing makes much difference.
Don't know why the underlines.

Sandman1221
395 posts
3 Nov 2020 11:14AM
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boardsurfr said..
Sandman1221 said..
Now maybe it helped that the Goya Bolt 135 was 243 cm long, shorter board may be harder to land coming out of a foil out.

I think that's right. On my slalom board that's a few cm longer than your Bolt, I can often recover. On a Blast that 14 cm shorter, it's harder. On my 6 ft 10 board, it's nearly impossible. The the nose rocker plays a big role, too. A good foil-specific nose rocker lets the front of the board touch down flat, giving you a chance to pop back up. My 6.10 just does not have much nose rocker, so it just knifes into the water and goes deep.
It would be interesting to hear from someone who has used slow and fast foils on the same board if speed helps the recovery.


have not done that, but I think the higher speed when I foiled out gave me more air time to tun the board upwind and land, I was flying. When I have foiled out in 8-10 knots board seemed to drop like a rock.

IndecentExposur
267 posts
3 Nov 2020 2:14PM
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Look up 'breach recovery' as well, same topic.

WhiteofHeart
489 posts
3 Nov 2020 6:05PM
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I think you need more rake. Your board doesnt have a foilboard rockerline, meaning that in a touchdown your board hits the water fairly far forward, putting the handbrake on. A foilout only amplifies this. Cant your foil backwards 1-2 degrees and see the magic happen.

Another thing which could work is practicing foiling out on safe speeds. I often do a foilout on purpose to get rid of grass stuck to my foil.

Sandman1221
395 posts
3 Nov 2020 10:33PM
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WhiteofHeart said..
I think you need more rake. Your board doesnt have a foilboard rockerline, meaning that in a touchdown your board hits the water fairly far forward, putting the handbrake on. A foilout only amplifies this. Cant your foil backwards 1-2 degrees and see the magic happen.

Another thing which could work is practicing foiling out on safe speeds. I often do a foilout on purpose to get rid of grass stuck to my foil.


Looked at posts under breach recovery, but not much in technique, I think turning the nose upwind may help to get wind under the board to extend air time. Not changing my rake angle, 0.0 is perfect for how I like to foil. Rarely foil out now, just got caught in an extra strong gust while I was at max height.

choco
SA, 3600 posts
4 Nov 2020 4:49AM
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Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I think you need more rake. Your board doesnt have a foilboard rockerline, meaning that in a touchdown your board hits the water fairly far forward, putting the handbrake on. A foilout only amplifies this. Cant your foil backwards 1-2 degrees and see the magic happen.

Another thing which could work is practicing foiling out on safe speeds. I often do a foilout on purpose to get rid of grass stuck to my foil.



Looked at posts under breach recovery, but not much in technique, I think turning the nose upwind may help to get wind under the board to extend air time. Not changing my rake angle, 0.0 is perfect for how I like to foil. Rarely foil out now, just got caught in an extra strong gust while I was at max height.


When I breach I just hang on and ride it down, biggest crash I have had was getting caught in a whirly, I landed on my back while watching the board and rig get lifted a few meters in the air.

WhiteofHeart
489 posts
4 Nov 2020 3:51AM
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I practically never crash foiling out anymore, often I recover even before the board hits the water. I think rake is the most underappreciated trim method of the foil, and at the same time the most influencial one. Its like forcing yourself to always sail with your mastfoot and boomheight and footstraps on the same settings, and wondering why some things are more difficult than they have to be.

How do you know 0.0 degree rake is perfect for the way you foil? Have you tried different? I know pretty much no other foilers who run 0.0 degrees.

Sandman1221
395 posts
4 Nov 2020 6:18AM
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choco said..
Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I think you need more rake. Your board doesnt have a foilboard rockerline, meaning that in a touchdown your board hits the water fairly far forward, putting the handbrake on. A foilout only amplifies this. Cant your foil backwards 1-2 degrees and see the magic happen.

Another thing which could work is practicing foiling out on safe speeds. I often do a foilout on purpose to get rid of grass stuck to my foil.



Looked at posts under breach recovery, but not much in technique, I think turning the nose upwind may help to get wind under the board to extend air time. Not changing my rake angle, 0.0 is perfect for how I like to foil. Rarely foil out now, just got caught in an extra strong gust while I was at max height.


When I breach I just hang on and ride it down, biggest crash I have had was getting caught in a whirly, I landed on my back while watching the board and rig get lifted a few meters in the air.


Holly crap, that was an experience to remember!

Sandman1221
395 posts
4 Nov 2020 6:22AM
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WhiteofHeart said..
I practically never crash foiling out anymore, often I recover even before the board hits the water. I think rake is the most underappreciated trim method of the foil, and at the same time the most influencial one. Its like forcing yourself to always sail with your mastfoot and boomheight and footstraps on the same settings, and wondering why some things are more difficult than they have to be.

How do you know 0.0 degree rake is perfect for the way you foil? Have you tried different? I know pretty much no other foilers who run 0.0 degrees.


have had more rake, 0.6 to 1.0 and in light winds it makes it harder to get up with a Goya Bolt 135, probably a different story for a foil specific board, but have never tried one.

remery
WA, 577 posts
4 Nov 2020 10:38AM
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On a Hover 122 with 70cm mast it generally smacks down but doesn't catapult.

aeroegnr
75 posts
26 Nov 2020 3:19AM
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Finally got a video of a visible foilout.

You'll notice that the board skids/spins out a little before it crashes.

I'm pretty inexperienced but today I felt the skid/spin right before the foilout and actually pushed the nose down and kept going a few times. It just depends on how quick it happens and if I reacted fast enough to stop the complete overfoil.




Edit:
Look at 58-59 seconds in this video. The board appears to skid and I push the nose down. I'm pretty sure this was a near-overfloil

boardsurfr
WA, 1219 posts
26 Nov 2020 4:05AM
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Looks to me like the foil is only almost out of the water in the first video, but never completely out. Only a tiny bit of the mast remains in the water, and that causes what's more like a spinout - the tail goes sideways. The same thing happens in the second video, where you recover from it. With a full overfoil where the foil is completely out of the water, recovery would be much harder. On the Blast that does not have a foil-specific (i.e. large) nose rocker, breach = crash, especially when using the outside foot straps.

LeeD
2126 posts
26 Nov 2020 4:43AM
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With Naish gen 1, you can flip the stab and effectively get a small fin to help with directional control when breached.

powersloshin
NSW, 1225 posts
26 Nov 2020 8:41AM
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You would be more stable if you can hook in the harness. It was hard for me in the beginning, but now if I am not hooked in I notice how unstable it becomes. Also your foil mast seems a bit short ? That also makes it hard to keep flying steadily.

Sandman1221
395 posts
26 Nov 2020 5:55AM
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good video, but no foil out, when I say I foiled out the foil comes completely out of the water, and for a moment I am really flying.

aeroegnr
75 posts
26 Nov 2020 6:04AM
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powersloshin said..
You would be more stable if you can hook in the harness. It was hard for me in the beginning, but now if I am not hooked in I notice how unstable it becomes. Also your foil mast seems a bit short ? That also makes it hard to keep flying steadily.


That's a 90cm mast, but with the gopro it's difficult to tell at that angle.
I'll probably end up hooking in more in the future

Maddlad
WA, 553 posts
26 Nov 2020 8:43AM
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If i foil out of the water, i just get my weight back over the centre of the foil and ride it back down with pressure on my back foot. It usually hits the surface and bounces back up onto the foil and off i go again.

Sandman1221
395 posts
26 Nov 2020 9:53AM
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Maddlad said..
If i foil out of the water, i just get my weight back over the centre of the foil and ride it back down with pressure on my back foot. It usually hots the surface and bounces back up onto the foil and off i go again.


now that is the kind of technique I was looking for

segler
736 posts
29 Nov 2020 1:01AM
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When I foil out (breach): (1) splash, (2) clear the steam from vision, (3) laugh, (4) uphaul or waterstart, (5) foil away, (6) laugh some more.

Next breach, repeat the above process.

Ant-man
NSW, 153 posts
29 Nov 2020 5:34AM
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It's been a while but I find just "locking in" and holding on results in no catapults or crashes, just a quick splash down and off you go again. I am on small board and rig though so easy to hold on to the sail.

Sandman1221
395 posts
30 Nov 2020 7:38AM
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Ant-man said..
It's been a while but I find just "locking in" and holding on results in no catapults or crashes, just a quick splash down and off you go again. I am on small board and rig though so easy to hold on to the sail.


when I come out the board wants to nose dive, now that is an accidental foil out, not trying to jump into the air so board is level.



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"how do you recover from a foil out?" started by Sandman1221