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Can't get flying

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Created by aeroegnr 3 months ago, 3 Oct 2020
boardsurfr
WA, 1223 posts
3 Nov 2020 9:49AM
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Ian K said..
Not much difference in a wind turbine and a sailboat. They use similar wings. One goes around in circles, one in a straight line.


Pretty big differences. The turbine blade speed increases with wind speed. That increase is roughly linear to wind speed over a significant range.

That's very different with freeride windsurfers and foilers. In first approximation, the board speed is nearly constant for a given foil and rider, regardless of wind, once planing respectively foiling. More like a turbine blade once it reaches maximum operational speed.


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Ian K said..
Don't think you're going to even get close with mathematics on this one though. All that pumping going on.


True enough that making a mathematically model of pumping onto a foil using sail, board, and foil would be a incredibly complex. Looking at racers, one could get the idea that they pump the board up to the minimum speed the foil needs to lift. But that's too simple even for race gear, since a lot of the pumping is done with the legs. If you look at wing boards, the "pump to foil speed" concept completely dies, since the boards just can't get fast enough. It's more like a skateboard ollie to get the board out at low speeds.

In general, I'd say that most foil beginners struggling to get flying will have more success concentrating on a getting their setup balanced, and then on learning to pump the foil, than by trying to pump the sail harder.

martyj4
291 posts
3 Nov 2020 9:56AM
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Aeroagnr there's many different ways to get going in light stuff. I've gone for the big area foil, small sail option. I have a 1600cm2 foil and a 5.7 m lift sail and can get going in 10 knots by pumping like crazy (or comfortably in 12 knots). Once up, I find I still have to pump the foil to keep going. Hard work especially on the back leg. A mate has the i84 and that's definitely easier to get going than my naish foil. It also seems to glide through the lulls better as I believe it has a slower stall speed. I reckon the 99 would be a touch better than the 84.
A few mates were foiling at the same time as me recently with race foils (1000cm2 approx), and 7+m race sails in 10-12 knots. I could get up at least as early as them, if not sooner, but once they got on the foil they thrashed me for outright speed. So it boils down to what you want to do with your foiling.
The other hindrance I occasionally have is the lift sail is great for low end grunt, but because it's soft and baggy, when the wind gets to 15+ knots it becomes a complete handfull. So for where I live, it's great as we get lots of seabreezes that come in as 10-13 knots. The newer specific foil sails I think probably do almost as good a job as my lift for low end grunt, but they have a MUCH greater top end.

aeroegnr
75 posts
6 Nov 2020 8:14PM
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Rytis Jas just posted this video.

Key is that two phase part of pumping which I eventually realized while out on the water, or getting board speed up before involving the rear foot as much. Also, stiffer forward leg to push forward, which I did about half the time (was very inconsistent due to posture issues that were pointed out to me). This was more apparently when riding the i76 because it took a lot more to get board speed up high enough, but the i99 I could feel the lift a lot sooner...

Hoping to foil a bit this weekend, as the wind has been pretty good for plain old windsurfing earlier this week, and I also took a winging lesson.

Sandman1221
407 posts
6 Nov 2020 11:42PM
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aeroegnr said..
Rytis Jas just posted this video.

Key is that two phase part of pumping which I eventually realized while out on the water, or getting board speed up before involving the rear foot as much. Also, stiffer forward leg to push forward, which I did about half the time (was very inconsistent due to posture issues that were pointed out to me). This was more apparently when riding the i76 because it took a lot more to get board speed up high enough, but the i99 I could feel the lift a lot sooner...

Hoping to foil a bit this weekend, as the wind has been pretty good for plain old windsurfing earlier this week, and I also took a winging lesson.



Way to much work for me! If I pump it is 2-3 times max of shorter motion pumps to get up. Good way to learn to pump is in subplaning winds, when you get the pumping right you will know it because the board will start to move pretty fast and be close to planing. Have been out with a 9.0 sail in 8-10 knots and then had it drop to 4-5 knots while 1/4-1/2 mile off shore, efficient pumping got me back to shore pretty fast.

gregwho
NSW, 51 posts
8 Nov 2020 5:05PM
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LeeD said..
Try to center the front wing's center of area between your footstraps.
When the board is just planing, quickly get in front strap, pump hard, and bear off 30 degrees. As board hits stable planing speed, step into rear strap with at least half your weight on front foot.
Now planing along at maybe 15 mph, experiment with quick short weighting of rear foot, board direction across the wind.
The board needs enough speed to plane with you IN the front straps, before you lift onto foil.
When you are advanced and in stronger wind, different rules apply.
If rear foot is anywhere forward of backstrap, it will take more pressure to fly.


I can wholeheartedly agree with this comment. After some months of trying to foil with varying degrees of success and moving the foil back and forward on a he board ( Slingshot so different fuselage positions available) I finally laid the foil wings on fuselage on my board and traced the front wing position onto the board. I now use position that puts the wing's centre of lift as closest to the middle of the footstaps. Voila! It works. Trial and error method of moving the foil fore and aft doesn't work when you don't know what you're doing. I wish I'd done that as soon as I got the board & foil.

gregwho
NSW, 51 posts
8 Nov 2020 5:05PM
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LeeD said..
Try to center the front wing's center of area between your footstraps.
When the board is just planing, quickly get in front strap, pump hard, and bear off 30 degrees. As board hits stable planing speed, step into rear strap with at least half your weight on front foot.
Now planing along at maybe 15 mph, experiment with quick short weighting of rear foot, board direction across the wind.
The board needs enough speed to plane with you IN the front straps, before you lift onto foil.
When you are advanced and in stronger wind, different rules apply.
If rear foot is anywhere forward of backstrap, it will take more pressure to fly.


I can wholeheartedly agree with this comment. After some months of trying to foil with varying degrees of success and moving the foil back and forward on a he board ( Slingshot so different fuselage positions available) I finally laid the foil wings on fuselage on my board and traced the front wing position onto the board. I now use position that puts the wing's centre of lift as closest to the middle of the footstaps. Voila! It works. Trial and error method of moving the foil fore and aft doesn't work when you don't know what you're doing. I wish I'd done that as soon as I got the board & foil.

aeroegnr
75 posts
8 Nov 2020 9:10PM
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Went out yesterday, and before the wind picked up I had the 6.6 and i76 going. The wind was probably 15mph or so. With some pumping, I could get the I76 flying. Definitely felt more loose with roll stability than the I99. Also a decent bit faster.

I found that when it accelerates, it felt quicker than the I99, and wanted to rise up more which I had mixed results with. Just need more time on the water with that foil. It was getting uncomfortable with the 6.6 in the gusts with the apparent wind. I was getting into the harness after on the foil and trying to relax but I'm still not able to relax as much as when planing on a fin.

After that the rest of the day I was finning on various sails and just planing, but now I have a better idea of the conditions and pumping I need for the I76 right now.

BTW still position C (furthest forward), mast track pretty much all the way back.

Smidgeuk
56 posts
8 Nov 2020 11:03PM
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There is no doubt in my mind that if position C is working well for you with i99 then it will not be right for i76. You will need B for i76 or even further backwards. I use C for i99 slid almost fully forwards on tracks and B for i76 with it slid a couple of cms back. If you stick with C in stronger winds on i76 then you will have lots of control and excess lift problems as you speed up. An excessively large sail will mask these problems at first, but its not a good look.

aeroegnr
75 posts
8 Nov 2020 11:32PM
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Smidgeuk said..
There is no doubt in my mind that if position C is working well for you with i99 then it will not be right for i76. You will need B for i76 or even further backwards. I use C for i99 slid almost fully forwards on tracks and B for i76 with it slid a couple of cms back. If you stick with C in stronger winds on i76 then you will have lots of control and excess lift problems as you speed up. An excessively large sail will mask these problems at first, but its not a good look.


With more TOW I'll experiment, but I think the C position is right for I76 and the I99 is more aft than it should be. The I99 feels very back-footed on that board.

segler
750 posts
11 Nov 2020 1:31AM
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Gregwho finally hit the nail on the head when he got the front wing at the midpoint between front and rear footstraps. For most foils, this placement is really important for balance. If you can move footstraps forward or aft, or move the foil itself forward or aft (track mount), you can do these adjustments.

Three years ago I made a youtube about this, using a formula board for which there is no adjustment of footstraps or finbox position. The only adjustment I had was sail mast base, which is a tweak compared to the big adjustments above. The message in the youtube is that you can measure the front wing position. Most foils have 90 degree masts, so you don't need a right-angle tool like I had to use for the forward-swept mast of the AFS-2.

marc5
46 posts
11 Nov 2020 3:17AM
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When I ride my 2018 Wizard 125, it feels good with the 99 in the B position (maybe a tiny bit rear-footed, which I like so I can hammer the front footstraps at speed). When I switch to the 76 wing in B it feels too front-footed and I'm in danger of breaches. Sail is 6.3, I weigh 180 lbs. Sail mast is in rear third of track. Wyatt says I should move sail to front fourth of track with 76--this wing was designed around the Wizard--should be easy to make it work. I will try this. I only have about 30 sessions on the board and I'm still trying to dial things in.

Grantmac
621 posts
11 Nov 2020 3:21AM
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marc5 said..
When I ride my 2018 Wizard 125, it feels good with the 99 in the B position (maybe a tiny bit rear-footed, which I like so I can hammer the front footstraps at speed). When I switch to the 76 wing in B it feels too front-footed and I'm in danger of breaches. Sail is 6.3, I weigh 180 lbs. Sail mast is in rear third of track. Wyatt says I should move sail to front fourth of track with 76--this wing was designed around the Wizard--should be easy to make it work. I will try this. I only have about 30 sessions on the board and I'm still trying to dial things in.


Or commit blasphemy and put a shim under the front stabilizer bolt. Then you gain some drag reduction and a more neutral trim across a greater speed range.

dejavu
339 posts
11 Nov 2020 12:08PM
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Grantmac said..

marc5 said..
When I ride my 2018 Wizard 125, it feels good with the 99 in the B position (maybe a tiny bit rear-footed, which I like so I can hammer the front footstraps at speed). When I switch to the 76 wing in B it feels too front-footed and I'm in danger of breaches. Sail is 6.3, I weigh 180 lbs. Sail mast is in rear third of track. Wyatt says I should move sail to front fourth of track with 76--this wing was designed around the Wizard--should be easy to make it work. I will try this. I only have about 30 sessions on the board and I'm still trying to dial things in.



Or commit blasphemy and put a shim under the front stabilizer bolt. Then you gain some drag reduction and a more neutral trim across a greater speed range.


When I had the 125 I also found the i76 much too front footed in B position. I moved the mast to A position and it really helped me balance my weight over the foil for a much more controlled flight.

segler
750 posts
12 Nov 2020 12:25PM
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I agree. It seems the i76 in the B position becomes front-foot heavy for many people. However, for all those boards out there with stock finboxes way aft, this still works. My old stock L6 formula board has a far aft finbox. The i76 in B balances perfectly.

aeroegnr
75 posts
22 Nov 2020 11:42PM
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The conditions were good yesterday for foiling (higher tide and thus less unseen obstacles), so I rode both the I76 and I99. The I99 was a bit much with my 6.6 when the wind picked up, so I switched. Both in the C position. I may try the B position on the I76 next time.

I76. Think this is a foil out at the end:




I99:


Having a higher boom and moving the front hand way back has helped a lot. I had to sheet out quite a bit in the gusts, and push the sail forward to stay stable. Also, I focused more on the horizon instead of staring at my board and wondering how high I was.

thedoor
765 posts
23 Nov 2020 9:35AM
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aeroegnr said..
The conditions were good yesterday for foiling (higher tide and thus less unseen obstacles), so I rode both the I76 and I99. The I99 was a bit much with my 6.6 when the wind picked up, so I switched. Both in the C position. I may try the B position on the I76 next time.

I76. Think this is a foil out at the end:



I99:


Having a higher boom and moving the front hand way back has helped a lot. I had to sheet out quite a bit in the gusts, and push the sail forward to stay stable. Also, I focused more on the horizon instead of staring at my board and wondering how high I was.


You are getting things dialed. Good recovery from the foil out, if that was one.

Those front straps are outboard? I would move them in as much as you can for free ride foils.

It still looked pretty light in the 76 vid and this tends to create a bit more of the sinewave (constantly adjusting the board height) which it looks like you were doing well. When you are powered up you can just focus on keeping it from breaching which at least for me is more stable flight outside of adjusting for swells.

Paducah
1258 posts
23 Nov 2020 10:42AM
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aeroegnr said..
Also, I focused more on the horizon instead of staring at my board and wondering how high I was.


This. It goes across sports from mtn biking to windfoil to about anything else. Your body can't figure out equilibrium looking down (plus the old biking mantra of "where you look is where you go")

Push yourself not to look down. It'll come in handy when you start jibing on the foil - spotting the exit and not looking at the board nose, your hands, etc will help you immensely.

Thanks for sharing your progress.

aeroegnr
75 posts
26 Nov 2020 3:14AM
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thedoor said..


Those front straps are outboard? I would move them in as much as you can for free ride foils.




Yeah with the straps outboard and second from the most aft hole it seems fine. Today I went out on the I99 and 8.0 and it was really comfortable once I slipped in the rear strap.

At least on this board, I feel really stable with both feet in the straps. With only the front foot strapped and the rear foot just somewhere in the middle between the straps, I haven't flown this easily.

thedoor
765 posts
26 Nov 2020 6:17AM
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aeroegnr said..

thedoor said..


Those front straps are outboard? I would move them in as much as you can for free ride foils.





Yeah with the straps outboard and second from the most aft hole it seems fine. Today I went out on the I99 and 8.0 and it was really comfortable once I slipped in the rear strap.

At least on this board, I feel really stable with both feet in the straps. With only the front foot strapped and the rear foot just somewhere in the middle between the straps, I haven't flown this easily.


Nice bro! there are so many ways to windfoil and what you are doing currently is working. There has been some debate if the XL foils and XL sails work together, so its great to see you making that combo work. You probably don't need to pump the sail much to get going?

It is likely that your rig is set up so that your back foot needs to be where that back strap is, which is probably why it feels comfortable. Some boards the back strap is too far back for regular riding so most people keep their foot out and forward, unless going upwind. I am a big fan of both straps and do really like the security.

aeroegnr
75 posts
26 Nov 2020 8:34PM
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thedoor said..


Nice bro! there are so many ways to windfoil and what you are doing currently is working. There has been some debate if the XL foils and XL sails work together, so its great to see you making that combo work. You probably don't need to pump the sail much to get going?

It is likely that your rig is set up so that your back foot needs to be where that back strap is, which is probably why it feels comfortable. Some boards the back strap is too far back for regular riding so most people keep their foot out and forward, unless going upwind. I am a big fan of both straps and do really like the security.


In that morning there was enough wind, I think 10-12mph, that I didn't really need to pump other than once or twice.
I went out again later when it was down to 8mph and below but getting up to 10-11mph and I was able to pump up onto the foil with some aggressive pumping. Extremely marginal conditions.

Then, it got crazy suddenly (steady 15-20mph or so) and I couldn't go downwind so I just slogged back and swapped a fin in to plane around until it died a while later.

I think the i99 is still a bit back-footed but I'll try the 76 with that 8.0 next time conditions are like that and see if I get the same easy foiling experience. I think the 76 would've required more pumping, but I'm getting better at feeling the pumping and movements into the straps.

thedoor
765 posts
27 Nov 2020 9:33AM
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aeroegnr said..

thedoor said..


Nice bro! there are so many ways to windfoil and what you are doing currently is working. There has been some debate if the XL foils and XL sails work together, so its great to see you making that combo work. You probably don't need to pump the sail much to get going?

It is likely that your rig is set up so that your back foot needs to be where that back strap is, which is probably why it feels comfortable. Some boards the back strap is too far back for regular riding so most people keep their foot out and forward, unless going upwind. I am a big fan of both straps and do really like the security.



In that morning there was enough wind, I think 10-12mph, that I didn't really need to pump other than once or twice.
I went out again later when it was down to 8mph and below but getting up to 10-11mph and I was able to pump up onto the foil with some aggressive pumping. Extremely marginal conditions.

Then, it got crazy suddenly (steady 15-20mph or so) and I couldn't go downwind so I just slogged back and swapped a fin in to plane around until it died a while later.

I think the i99 is still a bit back-footed but I'll try the 76 with that 8.0 next time conditions are like that and see if I get the same easy foiling experience. I think the 76 would've required more pumping, but I'm getting better at feeling the pumping and movements into the straps.


I am still trying to figure out when to rig big and take the 76 versus rig down and take the 99. My biggest currently is a 6.0 but I have a 6.5 on the way.

segler
750 posts
28 Nov 2020 12:58AM
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Hey aero, you video speedometer is showing speeds of 10-14 mph, but the appearance of speed over water seems more like 16-18 mph.

Granted, the big wing flies more slowly, but I wonder whether your GoPro software is correctly reading and displaying the speed from your camera. Make sure the camera is recording in mph, too.

Looks warm down there in Florida. Nice. I hope to join you in February.

aeroegnr
75 posts
28 Nov 2020 1:25AM
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segler said..
Hey aero, you video speedometer is showing speeds of 10-14 mph, but the appearance of speed over water seems more like 16-18 mph.

Granted, the big wing flies more slowly, but I wonder whether your GoPro software is correctly reading and displaying the speed from your camera. Make sure the camera is recording in mph, too.

Looks warm down there in Florida. Nice. I hope to join you in February.


Yeah that's a good question. I looked at the settings and I don't see an option to set on the camera, only a switch between imperial/metric on the Quik software.

I've been pretty disappointed with the GPS function, as it frequently doesn't work at all due to poor signal so entire clips will have no data. I usually have my phone on me and recording the whole time, and the speeds seem similar, but it's hard to tell when/where the speeds are and the phone often reports ridiculous maxes that aren't even close to right, but the time traces will indicate some better data.

Yeah, it's been great. Hopefully still warm enough in february. I think the others here thought I was a little bit crazy to be out at sunrise with just trunks on but I've been quite acclimated to cold water after learning/swimming in the Seattle area and just accepting a lot of windswimming/windsurfing situations as the water cooled off here while figuring out waterstarts and get dunked trying gybes.

Paducah
1258 posts
28 Nov 2020 1:33AM
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thedoor said..

I am still trying to figure out when to rig big and take the 76 versus rig down and take the 99. My biggest currently is a 6.0 but I have a 6.5 on the way.


Probably more a function of what riding you want to do? Rig big in my lexicon is 7+ To state the obvious: Rig big, small wing = blasting through the lulls, hanging on in the gusts, straighter lines, more upwind/downwind adventures and lots of jibes powered up. Rig small big wing = curvier lines, generally being more picky when/where I jibe (to keep the power on), not trying for optimizing VMG up or downwind.

thedoor
765 posts
28 Nov 2020 3:19AM
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Paducah said..

thedoor said..

I am still trying to figure out when to rig big and take the 76 versus rig down and take the 99. My biggest currently is a 6.0 but I have a 6.5 on the way.



Probably more a function of what riding you want to do? Rig big in my lexicon is 7+ To state the obvious: Rig big, small wing = blasting through the lulls, hanging on in the gusts, straighter lines, more upwind/downwind adventures and lots of jibes powered up. Rig small big wing = curvier lines, generally being more picky when/where I jibe (to keep the power on), not trying for optimizing VMG up or downwind.


Big rig/small wing for flat water and small rig/big wing for swell makes the most sense to me.

Problem is pumping and holding onto those big sails is a hell of a lot more work, but the pay off is the speed. I guess if I wanted something easy I could always wing ;)

boardsurfr
WA, 1223 posts
28 Nov 2020 3:22AM
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aeroegnr said..
I've been pretty disappointed with the GPS function, as it frequently doesn't work at all due to poor signal so entire clips will have no data.


Which camera are you using?

It's quite possible that the missing data are actually a bug in the Quick software. You could try using Race Render instead (example movie and screen shots at boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2020/08/gopro-gps-and-race-render-for-jibe.html). It worked pretty well when I used it with my GoPro 7. I think this model is inferior to earlier models in many respects (e.g. larger and shorter battery life), but the GPS seemed to work well enough. Speeds seemed reasonably accurate when compared to GPS units known to be accurate (Motion GPS).

aeroegnr
75 posts
28 Nov 2020 4:36AM
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boardsurfr said..

aeroegnr said..
I've been pretty disappointed with the GPS function, as it frequently doesn't work at all due to poor signal so entire clips will have no data.



Which camera are you using?

It's quite possible that the missing data are actually a bug in the Quick software. You could try using Race Render instead (example movie and screen shots at boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2020/08/gopro-gps-and-race-render-for-jibe.html). It worked pretty well when I used it with my GoPro 7. I think this model is inferior to earlier models in many respects (e.g. larger and shorter battery life), but the GPS seemed to work well enough. Speeds seemed reasonably accurate when compared to GPS units known to be accurate (Motion GPS).


Yeah, also the hero 7. Maybe I'll look into Race Render, Quik seems pretty buggy sometimes.

segler
750 posts
28 Nov 2020 1:26PM
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+1 for Race Render. I use it with my Gopro 5 Black with GPS. Works well. Extremely flexible. I set it up to display a real time speedometer, elapsed distance, track, and maximum speed of that session. Really nice.

segler
750 posts
29 Nov 2020 12:53AM
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Here is a basic youtube that shows what I like to do with Race Render:



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"Can't get flying" started by aeroegnr