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Can't get flying

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Created by aeroegnr 3 months ago, 3 Oct 2020
aeroegnr
75 posts
3 Oct 2020 7:43AM
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Hey everyone,

I'm just under 90kg and frequently have days in the 10-12 knot range, or a little higher like today.

My board is a 145 freeride with a foil box (blast), and I've currently got a 5.8, 8.0, and 9.5 sail with a 6.6 on the way.

The foil is a slingshot infinity 76.

On the 10-12 knot days I'm on the verge of planing with the fin, depending on the gusts, if I have the 9.5 rigged.

So far, I've only really left the water on two days while foiling after trying many times.

Once was when the gusts were over 20 and I had the 5.8. The switch fuse was also at the furthest back position (slingshot A), and i would immediately lose control because my weight had to be so far back. The only other time I was out of the water a little, on a day about 12kts with the 8.0 cheetah, but it barely happened.

I tried recently foiling with the 9.5 with no luck, and today with the 8.0, both B and C mast positions, and as aggressively as I could pump that 8.0, but it didn't happen. I wore myself out trying to pump the sail and foil, and just seemed to go slower.

I've got no clue what I'm doing wrong. If it's the wind gauge at my nearest locale reading high or if my technique is just so bad. But, I've had about 10x more fun with just a fin, regardless of wind state, because it's way easier to set up and I know that if it gusts I'll be planing and going fast, don't have to go to a deeper location, etc.

LeeD
2153 posts
3 Oct 2020 8:34AM
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Try to center the front wing's center of area between your footstraps.
When the board is just planing, quickly get in front strap, pump hard, and bear off 30 degrees. As board hits stable planing speed, step into rear strap with at least half your weight on front foot.
Now planing along at maybe 15 mph, experiment with quick short weighting of rear foot, board direction across the wind.
The board needs enough speed to plane with you IN the front straps, before you lift onto foil.
When you are advanced and in stronger wind, different rules apply.
If rear foot is anywhere forward of backstrap, it will take more pressure to fly.

Windbot
264 posts
3 Oct 2020 9:54AM
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I do all my sailing in similar light winds. As you get moving try leaning the rig back towards the boards tail. I was told to treat the sail mast like an aircraft's control stick, pulling back on the stock helps me take off earlier. I find this is key in light winds. Leaning it forwards brings me back down.

boardsurfr
WA, 1223 posts
3 Oct 2020 10:31AM
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The Blast will probably need the i76 in the C position (B if you're a bit backfoot heavy). I'd take the straps off, at least the back straps.

To get started with foiling, you want conditions where you can almost plane, and a sail below 6 meters, although the 6.6 may work. The large sails are not a great match for your board and foil, and definitely not to start. You could try them again after you can control the flight somewhat with a smaller sail, which takes most guys between 3 and 10 sessions (but you may still be disappointed then).

I'm about your weight, and probably about average efficiency for someone with 50+ foil sessions (not a great pumper). 12 knot averages, measured with a hand-held meter, would be close to my minimum for the i76 with a 6.5 m sail and the Blast 145, but I probably would need higher gusts to get going. When I started foiling, I probably needed a couple more knots.

Note that wind gauges from airports, iWindsurf, etc. are usually mounted ~ 10 m in the air, and read a few knots higher than what you read with a handheld meter. My current minimum for consistent flights on the local iWindsurf meter with a 6.5 is 13 mph, with 15 mph gusts (with the Slingshot Infinity 84). When I measure on shore, I want to see 10 - 12 mph before I bother going out. With the i76, I probably would need a knot more.

Smidgeuk
56 posts
3 Oct 2020 5:01PM
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Genuine 10-12kts at 90kg on i76 is not at all easy, although it will stay up happily if a higher gust comes along to get you up, or if your foil and sail pumping is superb. I have i99 for that wind strength (could also try i84) - im 90kgs
Forget position A, try B and C - probably C when its light. Remove back foot strap. Make sure mast foot is no more than 110cms from front tuttle bolt, potentially a lot less. Have a sail that you can pump like a lunatic (absolute size is less important than pumpabilty and some powerfulness) and also pump the foil if you can as speed builds (down not side to side) I have never bothered trying my sails bigger than 7.5 as I think the weight of the sail and handling difficulties (especially pumping) will counteract the benefits (and i use the 7.5 only in desperation).

w100
WA, 129 posts
3 Oct 2020 5:24PM
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I think this is the very same problem many people faced with when they started with Formula Windsurfing stuff, thinking it would have been the ultimate light wind weapon. Yes, at that time, it was, but you needed to leaqrn how to be efficient in REAL 6.-8 kts . I remember me pumping in wrong way my 12 sqm with no success while more active and correct technique people blasted with their 11 sqm!
Light wind sessions are always complicated.

aeroegnr
75 posts
3 Oct 2020 8:45PM
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Thank you, guys, sounds like my expectations with the rig are off.

I'll give it some more tries with my 5.8 and 6.6 (when it gets here). I'd love to get flying on those normal days here, because there's many of them and so far I think it's been more enjoyable to just rig the 9.5 and plane in the gusts on the board with a fin instead.

Seems like the big sails are just way out of trim. I'll consider a bigger foil wing if I don't get going on a windier day here just so I can get the feel.

Dcharlton
68 posts
3 Oct 2020 10:15PM
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10-12 knts isn't a lot of wind for the i76 unless you're pretty good at pumping the sail. I would recommend you get the i99, that's a LOT more easy to foil on in 10-12 knt days AND you can leave the big sails at home and stick with something in the upper 5s or lower 6 range.

DC

marc5
46 posts
4 Oct 2020 7:46PM
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Another vote for the i99. I started with the 76 and had trouble getting flying in those lighter winds on a Wizard 125. I got a 99 and immediately I was flying consistently and having much more fun. During my most recent session with a 6.3 which is my go-to sail, the wind came up and I quickly switched wings to my 76 ( much easier than rigging a new sail). I had not ridden the 76 since I got the 99. I discovered that my skills had improved significantly and I had a fantastic session on that 76 in the higher winds.

I was foiling with a buddy riding a Dialer with an i84. We noticed that the 99 was slower than the 84 in the stronger winds. Then the 76 was faster than the 84.

aeroegnr
75 posts
4 Oct 2020 10:20PM
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When you guys get an i84 or i99 are you also getting the 48 stabilizer or are you riding it with the 42?

It's really unclear to me if the 48 is strictly necessary or not with a bigger front than the i76. Looks like 700-800 for both if you can find them in stock anywhere.

Dcharlton
68 posts
5 Oct 2020 12:02AM
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The i84 and i99 can be ridden with either the 42 or 48 stabilizer. I prefer the added control of the 48 but many prefer the 42. Try it with your 42 first, if your having trouble with control on gusty days, you can always get the 48.

DC

Dcharlton
68 posts
5 Oct 2020 12:02AM
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The i84 and i99 can be ridden with either the 42 or 48 stabilizer. I prefer the added control of the 48 but many prefer the 42. Try it with your 42 first, if your having trouble with control on gusty days, you can always get the 48.

DC

aeroegnr
75 posts
5 Oct 2020 12:09AM
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Ok, thank you. Looks like I'll give the i99 a try, as it seems like the most reasonable option at the moment and if I ever try winging it'll be more appropriate for that as well.

Smidgeuk
56 posts
5 Oct 2020 12:52AM
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Just watch out before buying the i99. Try to get some advice from someone with the same board and an i99. The i99 doesnt work on all tuttle box boards as it needs to be further forwards, and if not far forwards enough you feel pinned to the water. Even slingshot advise against using it on their own tuttle box boards (although many seem to cope fine). It doesnt quite work with my old formula board, but does with my hypernut that has twin tracks.

aeroegnr
75 posts
6 Oct 2020 9:00PM
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Yeah, I've found some people saying they were able to get flying with a tuttle box board, i99, and had just shifted their weight back. I'm willing to give it a try and just have the big wing I'll need for either winging or a different board. The Blast is a Blast when it's a windy fin day, so if this doesn't work and I need a real light wind setup for foiling, so be it.

I experimented again yesterday because I was teaching my friend with my big floaty board and a 5.8 while I was able to get full speed with my 9.5, then the wind died off a bit. I think it was around 12-14mph winds, but nothing but bay in the way so much clearer air.

With the i76 and 5.8 in that wind I wasn't even close to getting good lift. I tried pumping as athletically and balanced as I could but it was just a workout of my legs and not much else.

Since I kept the 9.5 rigged I slapped that back on in the furthest back mast position (130 on the Blast, measured from the tip of the tail last I checked with a tape measure), and in the small puffs the 9.5 got the board to where it was on the foil almost all the way, and started handling different. But, if I shifted my weight slightly back, it killed speed. If I tried pumping with the 9.5, I would almost come to a stop (probably due to my skill more than anything).

Pretty sure if I had a bigger front wing I would've been out of the water then.

segler
750 posts
6 Oct 2020 11:03PM
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No, the i76 is PLENTY of lift for your weight and wind levels. You don't need to go bigger. I weigh in at 95 kg, and I foil the i76 (B position) with a 6.8 in 12-15 mph winds all the time when I am in Florida. When the wind is above 15 mph, I foil with a 5.0. It is not difficult.

I am guessing you can't get it flying because the wing is too far back. If you have to go back-foot heavy to get any flight at all, you need to move the wing forward. Balance is everything in this sport. Like LeeD says above, you must get the front wing to the midpoint between your feet. Specifically, the center of lift (COE) to the midpoint. See below.

Also, not many people mention this, but you should also check to see whether the planar axis of the fuselage is roughly parallel to that of the board bottom. If the fuselage is pointing down, you cannot generate angle of attack, even at board-planing speeds, to get it to lift. This is usually a function of the finbox and how the foil fits into it, but it is something to consider.

Back to balance. I made a youtube about this three years ago. Since you are using a Slingshot foil with a 90 degree angle of strut to fuselage, you don't need to use a right angle tool like I did in the video. Just measure directly. The center of lift (COE) on any front wing is about at the 1/3 point back from the leading edge. For shovel-shaped wings like the i76, this COE is very wide fore and aft, making it easy to balance.

aeroegnr
75 posts
9 Oct 2020 12:26AM
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I'll check the fuse angle with the board.

I99 comes in today, just have to pick it up. If there's any wind at all I'll try it today with a 6.6 or 5.8 after work.

12mph or so with the i76 and 5.8 I could tell I wasn't close at all. I could feel it almost there with the 9.5 that day. Could play with downhaul/outhaul adjustment as well but there just wasn't enough pull with the sail.

boardsurfr
WA, 1223 posts
9 Oct 2020 12:58AM
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Select to expand quote
aeroegnr said..
12mph or so with the i76 and 5.8 I could tell I wasn't close at all.

No way I could get going in 12 mph on the i76, even if everything is perfectly balanced. Even on the i84, I would not bother going in 12 mph, since I know I's slog a lot.

LeeD
2153 posts
9 Oct 2020 1:32AM
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12 works with pumping, progressive moving into straps, bearing off with more pumping, and down weighting backfoot.
Forget the 8-9 sails now, use a freeride 7 tuned for the breeze.

BakerSailor
43 posts
9 Oct 2020 4:50AM
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Select to expand quote
segler said..
No, the i76 is PLENTY of lift for your weight and wind levels. You don't need to go bigger. I weigh in at 95 kg, and I foil the i76 (B position) with a 6.8 in 12-15 mph winds all the time when I am in Florida. When the wind is above 15 mph, I foil with a 5.0. It is not difficult.

I am guessing you can't get it flying because the wing is too far back. If you have to go back-foot heavy to get any flight at all, you need to move the wing forward. Balance is everything in this sport. Like LeeD says above, you must get the front wing to the midpoint between your feet. Specifically, the center of lift (COE) to the midpoint. See below.

Also, not many people mention this, but you should also check to see whether the planar axis of the fuselage is roughly parallel to that of the board bottom. If the fuselage is pointing down, you cannot generate angle of attack, even at board-planing speeds, to get it to lift. This is usually a function of the finbox and how the foil fits into it, but it is something to consider.

Back to balance. I made a youtube about this three years ago. Since you are using a Slingshot foil with a 90 degree angle of strut to fuselage, you don't need to use a right angle tool like I did in the video. Just measure directly. The center of lift (COE) on any front wing is about at the 1/3 point back from the leading edge. For shovel-shaped wings like the i76, this COE is very wide fore and aft, making it easy to balance.




Hey segler, thanks for the video - I used it to tune my setup for the first time the other day (my first time on a foil).
Quick question: I'm on a Hover 142 with a Naish thrust ws1 and XL front wing, and even with the foil mast all the way back, I couldn't get the COE in the middle of the straps, was about 5cm forward.
How should I account for this when learning?
Cheers,
Simon

LeeD
2153 posts
9 Oct 2020 4:59AM
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If it's hard to fly, move foil mast forwards.
At 75kgs, flight is TOO easy, so I move straps forward, in effect moving foil mast back farther.
Sail mast base up 1/3rd.

LeeD
2153 posts
9 Oct 2020 5:03AM
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You gotta try the setup.
Suggested settings are a starting point only.
With stock 1220 ws wing, my foil mast is full back, straps one up.
With 600 kitewing, foil mast is 1.5" forward...same straps, same sail size, same sail mast base, same windspeed.

segler
750 posts
9 Oct 2020 11:46PM
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5 cm forward of the midpoint is not bad. Very doable, no problem. You will have to make sure that you keep your weight a bit forward when you come up into flight. You want to do that anyway. Good technique for foiling.

I have no trouble getting my i76 to fly in 12 mph winds with a 6.8, even at my 95 kg weight. In fact, this is my standard go-to kit for Florida winds during the fall and spring seasons. The only other sail I even take along is a 5.0 for the "windy" days.

Smidgeuk
56 posts
10 Oct 2020 5:18AM
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I had a session today where i started on the i76 which was perfectly balanced in B, wind dropped and i stuck the i99 on in C. But i forgot to slide it forward in the tracks. It worked sort of, mainly as wind picked back up, but the back leg burn was substantial and it felt off - a bit of that sensation of being pinned to the water and having to kick back harder than you should to get up. Which is classic symptom of the front wing not being forward enough. I ended up putting my back foot behind the back strap other than when the wind was really strong which was an odd stance. Still had fun though.

thedoor
763 posts
10 Oct 2020 6:13AM
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Select to expand quote
Smidgeuk said..
I had a session today where i started on the i76 which was perfectly balanced in B, wind dropped and i stuck the i99 on in C. But i forgot to slide it forward in the tracks. It worked sort of, mainly as wind picked back up, but the back leg burn was substantial and it felt off - a bit of that sensation of being pinned to the water and having to kick back harder than you should to get up. Which is classic symptom of the front wing not being forward enough. I ended up putting my back foot behind the back strap other than when the wind was really strong which was an odd stance. Still had fun though.


Yeah I like the 76 in B to be about 6cm+ further back than the 99 in C

aeroegnr
75 posts
10 Oct 2020 7:02AM
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Took the i99 out with a 6.6

10-14knots then dying to 8-10

Felt just about to go with the earlier wind

Finally felt something happening from my pumping

There were definitely times when I was just barely flying but the waves kept messing me up

SA_AL
117 posts
10 Oct 2020 10:18PM
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Select to expand quote
aeroegnr said..
Took the i99 out with a 6.6

10-14knots then dying to 8-10




I am heavier than you are and I use i99 with 6.3 Goya Fringe in 10-14 with very comfortable foiling in B position on my levitator. I found the B position is slightly more stable than C position. 48 back wing gives you more lift but 42 turns better. The track on the levitator allows forward positioning but on your board using C position and sail mast all the back may help for lifting. Your front feet position is also important. Try getting into front strap with pumping action and take off back straps during the learning phase and find your back foot balance point for lifting. i99 should definitely will fly in 10-14 knots with your size.

segler
750 posts
11 Oct 2020 12:41AM
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We are overthinking this. Just use the i76 with 42 stab in the B position and stop there. No need for any other wings or stabs. Use it with 4.0 to 8.0 sails in all winds. It just works.

LeeD
2153 posts
11 Oct 2020 12:45AM
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And learning to pump well is the key to light wind sailing.
Active, not passive.

aeroegnr
75 posts
11 Oct 2020 3:51AM
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Well, with the i99 and 8.0 I went out in gusty wind high enough to waterstart, and I finally got on the foil and was able to ride it for a little while.

It felt overpowered when the apparent wind got obvious but it was fun. Now, I just need more time like that so I can get better.

LeeD
2153 posts
11 Oct 2020 4:51AM
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I would thing a freeride 6.5 tuned for low wind would have more power than any 8.0 tuned for windsurfing. Sheer weight of the bigger sail needs the sail mast base farther back by maybe 3 cms.
And a 6.5 is easier to pump.



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"Can't get flying" started by aeroegnr