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Would this work - inner forestay for storm sail

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Created by jbarnes85 1 month ago, 29 Nov 2020
jbarnes85
NSW, 157 posts
29 Nov 2020 11:27AM
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Hi

i have a cavalier 32. Hank on sails. On the deck there is a large center cleat for attaching the mooring line/anchor about 1m or so aft of the forestay. I have a baby stay that goes up to the spreaders. The mast is about 16 years old. I have port and starboard spectra jib halyards. I mainly sail alone.

I recently had the boat re-rigged professionally by someone that has been in the industry for decades and was previously a mast builder. I was really happy with the work.

The rigger recommended that I install a 2:1 halyard below the Jib halyards for use with a storm sail that would have a wire bolt rope and the tack would be connected to the cleat. He thought the cleat was sufficiently reinforced. So it would not run up an inner forestay at all but rely on the tension of the 2:1 halyard and the wire "bolt rope" in the luff. I could then have the sail in a bag on deck for use. So he installed this new 2:1 halyard at very little cost throwing in a block he had spare. He assured me it was a good idea and he would do it if it was his boat.


Then speaking to a sail maker he thought that that wouldnt be the best idea because as I hoist the sail and take up the 2:1 halyard I would have to pull through ~25m of halyard which would take a long time and during that long time the sail would flog like crazy. I imagine I would have to be on a reach so it doesn't foul on the mast or the forestay.
the sailmakers suggested I install a removable dyneema inner forestay that can be tensioned with a 5:1 block or something like that. Then have a hank on storm sail. I would need to have a connection point installed on the mast to do this.

Any thoughts?

the other idea I had was wether I could use one of my spectra jib halyards as the inner forestay and hank the storm sail on to this? I could still add a tension block if I couldn't tension it enough with the winch. It's in the right position.
Obviously I want to think this through before I have a sail made. It's probably something I would do in the next year.

MorningBird
NSW, 2398 posts
29 Nov 2020 12:20PM
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I had an inner forestay rigged on Morning Bird to run a storm jib as a staysail. It worked brilliantly.
As the wind increased and the heady was furled in I had a storm jib all ready up and with a couple of reefs in the main was well set up for anything. And nobody had to go forard to achieve it.
It worked on 3 Lord Howe trips.
The inner stay ran from about a metre aft of the forestay tack up to about a metre below the forestay head on the mast. It did reduce the gap for the headsail to go through when tacking but offshore you only tack every few hours, if that, so furl the heady in a bit before tacking.
When sailing around the coastal areas I had the inner forestay tack secured to the toerail near the shrouds, out of the way.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 2228 posts
29 Nov 2020 11:23AM
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HI Jbarnes,
I can't quite work out the setup from the photos not knowing the boat, but this is a Cav 32 with inner forestay, maybe it could give you some ideas?
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cavalier-32-many-upgrades-new-standing-rigging-ready-to-enjoy/254346

r13
NSW, 631 posts
29 Nov 2020 12:34PM
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MorningBird said..
I had an inner forestay rigged on Morning Bird to run a storm jib as a staysail. It worked brilliantly.
As the wind increased and the heady was furled in I had a storm jib all ready up and with a couple of reefs in the main was well set up for anything. And nobody had to go forard to achieve it.
It worked on 3 Lord Howe trips.
The inner stay ran from about a metre aft of the forestay tack up to about a metre below the forestay head on the mast. It did reduce the gap for the headsail to go through when tacking but offshore you only tack every few hours, if that, so furl the heady in a bit before tacking.
When sailing around the coastal areas I had the inner forestay tack secured to the toerail near the shrouds, out of the way.


Good article here which correlates with MB comments.

www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/storm-sails-do-you-need-them

For the halyard to take the storm jib need to have it exiting the mast not too much lower than the masthead as per MB and the article so that excessive mast bend is not induced, and runners to this halyard exit are not needed.

Seems like the path of least resistance would be your last idea - already fitted spectra jib halyard to inner forestay location.

Bananabender
QLD, 1226 posts
29 Nov 2020 11:48AM
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Inner forestay attached to block ( red rope) leading back to cockpit?Release from toe rail and pull on when required?







Ramona
NSW, 5895 posts
29 Nov 2020 6:58PM
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jbarnes85 said..
Hi

i have a cavalier 32. Hank on sails. On the deck there is a large center cleat for attaching the mooring line/anchor about 1m or so aft of the forestay. I have a baby stay that goes up to the spreaders. The mast is about 16 years old. I have port and starboard spectra jib halyards. I mainly sail alone.

I recently had the boat re-rigged professionally by someone that has been in the industry for decades and was previously a mast builder. I was really happy with the work.

The rigger recommended that I install a 2:1 halyard below the Jib halyards for use with a storm sail that would have a wire bolt rope and the tack would be connected to the cleat. He thought the cleat was sufficiently reinforced. So it would not run up an inner forestay at all but rely on the tension of the 2:1 halyard and the wire "bolt rope" in the luff. I could then have the sail in a bag on deck for use. So he installed this new 2:1 halyard at very little cost throwing in a block he had spare. He assured me it was a good idea and he would do it if it was his boat.


Then speaking to a sail maker he thought that that wouldnt be the best idea because as I hoist the sail and take up the 2:1 halyard I would have to pull through ~25m of halyard which would take a long time and during that long time the sail would flog like crazy. I imagine I would have to be on a reach so it doesn't foul on the mast or the forestay.
the sailmakers suggested I install a removable dyneema inner forestay that can be tensioned with a 5:1 block or something like that. Then have a hank on storm sail. I would need to have a connection point installed on the mast to do this.

Any thoughts?

the other idea I had was wether I could use one of my spectra jib halyards as the inner forestay and hank the storm sail on to this? I could still add a tension block if I couldn't tension it enough with the winch. It's in the right position.
Obviously I want to think this through before I have a sail made. It's probably something I would do in the next year.


The sailmaker is dead correct! Storm sail or staysail on a fixed inner stay and hanks would be OK. The number of times you would use this in a lifetime versus the constant hooking up the headsail every time you tack would soon send you reaching for the razor blades and your wrists!
Spend the same money on a decent furler and don't leave the cockpit. Cav 32's will still go to windward with just a couple of feet of headsail out.

Ramona
NSW, 5895 posts
30 Nov 2020 7:50AM
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MorningBird said..
I had an inner forestay rigged on Morning Bird to run a storm jib as a staysail. It worked brilliantly.
As the wind increased and the heady was furled in I had a storm jib all ready up and with a couple of reefs in the main was well set up for anything. And nobody had to go forard to achieve it.
It worked on 3 Lord Howe trips.
The inner stay ran from about a metre aft of the forestay tack up to about a metre below the forestay head on the mast. It did reduce the gap for the headsail to go through when tacking but offshore you only tack every few hours, if that, so furl the heady in a bit before tacking.
When sailing around the coastal areas I had the inner forestay tack secured to the toerail near the shrouds, out of the way.


But you did have to send crew forward to put in the mainsail reefs over those horns! Ricochet has the same system but at least has a slug lock to keep the slugs in control. The weird thing is the second reef D ring would not fit down to the horn. Before leaving port I made a rope loop to fit down to the horn and had to use it Thursday night for several hours before dropping the main completely. Vessel sails well with just a bit of headsail. I would say that this must have been the first time she has sailed with a second reef in the main.

saltiest1
NSW, 2313 posts
30 Nov 2020 8:36AM
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Or you could put in a removable stay of a couple of different types like I'm about to. Mine will be on a highfield lever with check stays that will be relocatable when not required.

Jolene
1304 posts
30 Nov 2020 7:31PM
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saltiest1 said..
Or you could put in a removable stay of a couple of different types like I'm about to. Mine will be on a highfield lever with check stays that will be relocatable when not required.



Yep, a good way of doing it.




sirgallivant
NSW, 1507 posts
1 Dec 2020 1:18PM
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It is the proper way to rig an ocean going yacht.
On my Adams 28 I had a storm sails 2.2sqm and a stay-sail of 6.5sqm both hanked to the inner fore-stay.
With the three reefs in the main I never needed my tri-sail to be bent.

One must also be aware of and see the benefits of the Wichard hanks, opposed to the traditional piston hanks, as the Wichards are much much easier to use than the venerable piston hanks!



Jethrow
NSW, 954 posts
1 Dec 2020 1:25PM
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Sir Gallivant, yes those Wichard hanks are very easy to use but beware, their "easyness" also makes it easy for a halyard, genoa leech, spinnaker tape or other such items to clip in as it brushes past as well!

Kankama
NSW, 318 posts
2 Dec 2020 7:18AM
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Put me down for an inner forestay. Mine is set back a bit more than normal and can only take the storm jib but I do love it. When it is really blowing hard the genoa gets rolled up and the little bulletproof storm jib gets raised and we are snug and safe. I do not like using the roller furler for reefing. I am interested in adding a removable inner forestay to take a solent jib. It would be in much the same position as the on posted by the OP. The cheapest option is to use a highfield lever or low friction ring cascade to tighten the removable forestay. I would also be very interested in checking that the cleat it tied onto the hull skin by a tension member - a piece of stainless bar or similar. It may lie on a bulkhead but the cleat must not be only fixed to a large backing block. The huge lifting loads have to be taken by the hull or distributed to the hull deck join by a substantial beam. There is something on this in one of Fatty Goodlanders books. Raising a sail without a stay is fine, if you have the correct gear. Multis and performance boats do it all the time - with screechers and Code 0s. Some people I know use the screecher furler to hoist their solent jib which is fitted with an anti torque luff line. They can then chug to windward under a lovely small blade jib when others are slugging it out with baggy reefed headsails - plus it is great redundancy. It is a great way to have your cake and eat it too. But more expensive than a low friction ring cascade on a Dynex dux luff line, then you could also use soft hanks.
Cheers

Phil

Ramona
NSW, 5895 posts
2 Dec 2020 8:41AM
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Ricochet has an adjustable inner fore stay. There is a SS cable from a ring bolt on the deck through the front compartment down to the hull. On deck there is a rope whip to a dedicated winch on the deck at the base of the mast. This is all going when I feel the urge to climb the mast and disconnect the stay. The boat sails well with just a heavily reefed headsail. 99.999% of the time that inner fore stay is going to drive you crazy every time you tack, forget short tacking in confined spaces. Even if the tack is stored near the shroud base that wire is going to be annoying!
With a Cav 32 installing a quality headsail furler will mean you will go sailing more often and keep you or some other dumb smuck from venturing on the fore deck in hazardous conditions.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 2228 posts
2 Dec 2020 8:44AM
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Ramona said..
Ricochet has an adjustable inner fore stay. There is a SS cable from a ring bolt on the deck through the front compartment down to the hull. On deck there is a rope whip to a dedicated winch on the deck at the base of the mast. This is all going when I feel the urge to climb the mast and disconnect the stay. The boat sails well with just a heavily reefed headsail. 99.999% of the time that inner fore stay is going to drive you crazy every time you tack, forget short tacking in confined spaces. Even if the tack is stored near the shroud base that wire is going to be annoying!
With a Cav 32 installing a quality headsail furler will mean you will go sailing more often and keep you or some other dumb smuck from venturing on the fore deck in hazardous conditions.





And a furling headsail gives you the best of both worlds. I agree that when the inner forestay is deployed, tacking is more of a pain.
But with a furler it eases that pain considerably as it's :
-superfast to downsize sail area, even blowing its not hard to furl on a winch;
-still tackable with a half furl if you do have the inner forestay set;
-still able to be dump the jib on the deck if needed (windage); and
-gives you the option of changing up and down to a staysail quickly and easily.

For mine, I'd start with a good quality furler first, then add a removable inner forestay if you think you need it.

The real benefit I have found with a inner forestay and staysail is the centre of force is much more aligned to the middle of the boat, it's quite comfortable and easy to helm even in 30+ knots with less heel and more useable power where an equivalent amount of power from a forestay sail is much harder to helm with.

Jolene
1304 posts
2 Dec 2020 7:11AM
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A reinforced anchor locker bulkhead to to take the chain plate for inner stay



Stainless chain plate that incorporates the anchor winch

Jolene
1304 posts
2 Dec 2020 7:37AM
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Ramona said..
Ricochet has an adjustable inner fore stay. There is a SS cable from a ring bolt on the deck through the front compartment down to the hull. On deck there is a rope whip to a dedicated winch on the deck at the base of the mast. This is all going when I feel the urge to climb the mast and disconnect the stay..


Your adjustable inner stay sounds alot like a baby stay and nothing to do with a stay sail.
Adjustable because you probably have an adjustable back stay for adjusting forestay tension. Being able to ease the baby stay whilst cranking on the backstay is extremely useful with stiff masts. Your rig is probably an inline spreader with single lowers so your baby stay is there to set preload to stop pumping and mast inversion from mainsheet tension.

I found that sometimes sailing close to windward with the staysail is a mistake because it won't power you up to get though the waves. I need to keep as much heady out as I can. But as I bare away the stay sail is awesome. It reduces heel and pressure on the helm and makes things more comfortable with little or no speed loss and no baggy skin tight sail shape.

MorningBird
NSW, 2398 posts
2 Dec 2020 4:09PM
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Jolene said..

Ramona said..
Ricochet has an adjustable inner fore stay. There is a SS cable from a ring bolt on the deck through the front compartment down to the hull. On deck there is a rope whip to a dedicated winch on the deck at the base of the mast. This is all going when I feel the urge to climb the mast and disconnect the stay..



Your adjustable inner stay sounds alot like a baby stay and nothing to do with a stay sail.
Adjustable because you probably have an adjustable back stay for adjusting forestay tension. Being able to ease the baby stay whilst cranking on the backstay is extremely useful with stiff masts. Your rig is probably an inline spreader with single lowers so your baby stay is there to set preload to stop pumping and mast inversion from mainsheet tension.

I found that sometimes sailing close to windward with the staysail is a mistake because it won't power you up to get though the waves. I need to keep as much heady out as I can. But as I bare away the stay sail is awesome. It reduces heel and pressure on the helm and makes things more comfortable with little or no speed loss and no baggy skin tight sail shape.


My experience too.

Kankama
NSW, 318 posts
2 Dec 2020 8:13PM
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I think the thing about reefing by furling that is a pain is that when you reef and two bad things happen. The CE moves forward in both the main and the genny, and the genny gets fuller. This means you get lee helm just when you don't want it.

By pulling a blade jib on a stay aft of the forestay, the CE of the headsail moves aft, pretty much nullifying the effect of the CE moving forward in the main. And the jib can be cut really flat. So your boat stays nice and balanced.

Like all things, each to their own. But I have changed heaps on my cat in 20 years of owning her and one thing I could not live without is the ability to put up my slightly large storm jib in 25 plus on her own stay and jog to windward with a reef in the main, snug as a bug in a rug with super well shaped sails and beautiful balance. Sure it makes tacking a bit more of a hassle but because this is a babyish stay it is not a trial. So the OP may love the idea, as do I, or hate it as Ramona does.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 2228 posts
2 Dec 2020 8:12PM
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Kankama said..
I think the thing about reefing by furling that is a pain is that when you reef and two bad things happen. The CE moves forward in both the main and the genny, and the genny gets fuller. This means you get lee helm just when you don't want it.

By pulling a blade jib on a stay aft of the forestay, the CE of the headsail moves aft, pretty much nullifying the effect of the CE moving forward in the main. And the jib can be cut really flat. So your boat stays nice and balanced.

Like all things, each to their own. But I have changed heaps on my cat in 20 years of owning her and one thing I could not live without is the ability to put up my slightly large storm jib in 25 plus on her own stay and jog to windward with a reef in the main, snug as a bug in a rug with super well shaped sails and beautiful balance. Sure it makes tacking a bit more of a hassle but because this is a babyish stay it is not a trial. So the OP may love the idea, as do I, or hate it as Ramona does.




Yep, put me down as another who doesn't like part furling as a method to downchange. The sail can't hold shape and as Kankama mentioned the centre of effort goes forward...ugh.
It's interesting reading Jolene and MB's experience though, as I point higher with a staysail than I can with the jib, and by a good 5 degrees. This makes sense on one hand, as you are reducing sail forrard of the mast so the combined centre of effort shifts behind the mast . On the other hand, you would expect it to be worse as my sheeting angle is wider with the staysail (it uses the same barber haulers/ position as the headsail.)
Classic horses for courses paradigm, every boat is different.

woko
NSW, 789 posts
2 Dec 2020 9:34PM
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Shaggy you nailed it there, ketch with a full run of keel and a 10' bow sprit, the big head sail furls OK with the foam luff battens, and sometimes it's good with a half furled jib and a inner staysil, just have to keep an eye out for the inner jib back winding the main. Classic horses courses paradigm !

Jolene
1304 posts
2 Dec 2020 7:59PM
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Hey Shaggy, just to elaborate, the staysail I have still points alright, may be a bit higher probably due to the sheeting but in rough choppy water it lacks drive . I have a nice No 4 that I can put on the furler and I should give that a comparison run against the staysail.

tarquin1
581 posts
3 Dec 2020 1:45AM
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Do you only want to use this as a heavy weather sail. I think you need to decide a wind range then work around that.
A flying sail thats not attatched to a stay will sag and not be good upwind in any breeze. Also as mentioned not fun to hoist in a blow.
How many headsails do you have? As you have a hanked on headsail once you put that stay on tacking will become more difficult.
Sailing is always a compromise and you need to find the best compromise for the situation.
A furling staysail on your 2:1 halyard, easy to deploy and drop. Wont be able to point in any breeze as it will sag.
Removable stay with tension system. More difficult to put on and makes tacking difficult but will be able to point higher in a blow.
Hoisting a sail on a 2:1 halyard in a blow by yourself dosnt seem like a good idea to me. If the sheet gets caught and the sail fills when you are hoisting its not going to be good.
Decide on which of these is the best comprimise for what you want. Then work on the finer points.
Normally attaching a sail to a fitting because its there is attaching it in the wrong spot. Something you do when you have to. I would say if you are having a sail made the cost of putting the tack in the right spot would not be a biggy.
Some or most of this has probably been said. Just my thoughts.

Ramona
NSW, 5895 posts
3 Dec 2020 8:07AM
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Cav 32s are not a big boat. They will go to windward with just a bit of headsail unfurled. If you have a hanked on headsail on a Cav 32 and down size to a staysail either fixed stay or flying, you still have to go forward and either remove the headsail or frap it down on the deck with a shock cord /hook arrangement to the toe rail. Left on deck it will still create a lot of drag and collect water. The halyard will need to be tensioned to keep clear of the staysail as you attempt to set it.
Ramona has several staysail deck points and an off the wind staysail. I stitched up a storm staysail and gave it a go in fresh conditions and came to the conclusion the best place for it was the sail room. My go-to heavy weather configuration is a couple of feet of headsail or none and the third reef in the main. Don't leave the cockpit and don't get wet.
Ricochet it's 50% of the headsail. If in doubt just think, what would Jessica Watson do?



tarquin1
581 posts
3 Dec 2020 5:43AM
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Yes but the guy asking the question has a hanked on headsail. So your answer would be put a furling headsail on and forget the staysail. Does he have the budget to do that.
I will add that I think a furling sail compromises shape for ease of handling.

Ramona
NSW, 5895 posts
3 Dec 2020 8:59AM
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tarquin1 said..
Yes but the guy asking the question has a hanked on headsail. So your answer would be put a furling headsail on and forget the staysail. Does he have the budget to do that.
I will add that I think a furling sail compromises shape for ease of handling.


I'm aware he has a hanked on headsail. The obvious answer is a furling headsail would be probably easier and just as cheap as a new sail and rigging. The only smart move with hanked on headsails is to keep changing down to your eventually using a hanked on storm sail. Stowing the sails down below as you go.

Jolene
1304 posts
3 Dec 2020 6:04AM
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Ramona said..
Cav 32s are not a big boat. They will go to windward with just a bit of headsail unfurled. If you have a hanked on headsail on a Cav 32 and down size to a staysail either fixed stay or flying, you still have to go forward and either remove the headsail or frap it down on the deck with a shock cord /hook arrangement to the toe rail. Left on deck it will still create a lot of drag and collect water. The halyard will need to be tensioned to keep clear of the staysail as you attempt to set it.
Ramona has several staysail deck points and an off the wind staysail. I stitched up a storm staysail and gave it a go in fresh conditions and came to the conclusion the best place for it was the sail room. My go-to heavy weather configuration is a couple of feet of headsail or none and the third reef in the main. Don't leave the cockpit and don't get wet.
Ricochet it's 50% of the headsail. If in doubt just think, what would Jessica Watson do?





If you understand her circumstances at the time when that photo was taken , you know why she has only that scrap of sail out. The picture is in no way depict how she sailed the boat in rough weather or her sail choice,, I guess it is her sail choice for going nowhere.

tarquin1
581 posts
3 Dec 2020 6:28AM
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He also says he just had the boat re-rigged. Maybe he chose not to put a furler on or couldn't afford it or didnt get given the option from the rigger. Now he is looking to put a staysail on. Always a compromise and a budget to work too.
You never get all the info.

Yara
NSW, 1102 posts
3 Dec 2020 9:58AM
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I think the rigger was talking about a Solent stay. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solent_(sailing_rig)

Ilenart
164 posts
3 Dec 2020 9:02AM
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Yara said..
I think the rigger was talking about a Solent stay. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solent_(sailing_rig)


Yep, this was the standard setup supplied by Hallberg-Rassy for my HR40; removable solent stay, a hanked on staysail or storm jib, plus runners setup when the solent stay has a sail on it. Most other owners I have chatted to only set it up for a long passage with the staysail already hanked on in a bag. That way the trip forward consists of removing the bag and running the sheets back to the cockpit.

Ilenart

jbarnes85
NSW, 157 posts
3 Dec 2020 12:28PM
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Hi

thanks for all the awesome feedback and ideas. I'm just digesting it all.
yeh I chose not to put a furler on. The boat had a foil but I found for single handed sailing it was a pain taking the sails down. The boat had three nice tri radial laminate sails. Although I could have converted one to furler it wouldn't have been ideal (mouldy) and then I would have to have the rest recut to fit the furler to use them and they have a pretty low foot on them. I also like the idea of hank on sails and am happy to change sails often. I get a lot of pleasure out of seeing a nicely set sail. I'm also reasonably fit and happy to be on the bow.

yep I am more talking about a solent with the inner forestay attachment right up near the top just under the exit point of the jib halyards. I don't believe I would need runners (or am I thinking of check stays) as the attachment is near enough the top of the mast so the backstay will oppose the forces. I have a number three so I think the first thing I'll do is get a number 4 sail made ($2200).

I like the idea of the one in the image at the top with the inner stay running through a low friction ring then back to the cockpit, presumably with a 3:1 or something block to tension it. I think I'll go down this rout. But I'll leave it to next year.

john24
37 posts
3 Dec 2020 10:33AM
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Not really much experience but I would think a solent stay makes a lot of sense when used with a furling genoa. Does a solent have the same benefits with hank on sails? With a solent you won't be flying both headsails like a cutter and difficult to tack a genoa if the solent stay is up. Since you are going to have to down sails to reef or change sails what advantage does the solent give? It will be set slightly aft but generally they are parallel and the tack not far away from the forestay position so while there would be some shift of the CoE I am not sure how much.

I think a solent would make perfect sense when used with a furling genoa/jib. If you are tacking a lot remove it, otherwise furl to tack. When the wind gets up, furl the genoa completely and hoist a smaller jib on the solent. When cruising two poled out headsails might do the job.

As I said, not much experience so would like comments from those that have tried such a arrangement.



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"Would this work - inner forestay for storm sail" started by jbarnes85