Why are Boat Prices Falling?

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SandS said..
its a breeding problem ..........power boat owners have more time to breed than sailors !!!! they buy the power boat and it sits in the marina alone while the owner is at home producing another stink boat owner !!!
sailors spend more time on the boat tinkering with systems ect and sailing ......... we should be at home breeding more sailors !!!!

I am doing my best.
My son and his wife got the good news on all the tests after three months pregnancy today.
We have just toasted another sailor with a glass of bubbly.

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Bundeenabuoy said..

SandS said..
its a breeding problem ..........power boat owners have more time to breed than sailors !!!! they buy the power boat and it sits in the marina alone while the owner is at home producing another stink boat owner !!!
sailors spend more time on the boat tinkering with systems ect and sailing ......... we should be at home breeding more sailors !!!!

I am doing my best.
My son and his wife got the good news on all the tests after three months pregnancy today.
We have just toasted another sailor with a glass of bubbly.

Good work !! All the best to your family !! Maybe twins next time !!!

TOO many rules now cant anchor in so many places cant be off mooring so many days cant stay aboard so many day must have full comprehensive insurance to enter marina must have black water holding tank cant fish even troll in so many areas yearly mooring inspections hard to get insurance on mooring the list is never ending b4 rules came in I was offered $85,000.00 for my duncanson 37 sloop aft cockpit I have tried to give it away to my son and son inlaw cant even gift it now

Real Estate has joined yachts as very difficult things to sell whether at cost or a huge loss.

The world is spinning on a $125 trillion debt. I do not know who the world owes the money to. Is it Amchel Rothschild or the man on the moon?

No matter, the debt is more than 3 times the world GDP.

We are headed for a huge financial chasm that may be worse than the 1920's crash.

World War III will not be military. It will be monetary and cyber.

Wife and I have our survival plan in place. It features ownership of gold, silver and a live aboard yacht.

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cisco said..
Real Estate has joined yachts as very difficult things to sell whether at cost or a huge loss.

The world is spinning on a $125 trillion debt. I do not know who the world owes the money to. Is it Amchel Rothschild or the man on the moon?

No matter, the debt is more than 3 times the world GDP.

We are headed for a huge financial chasm that may be worse than the 1920's crash.

World War III will not be military. It will be monetary and cyber.

Wife and I have our survival plan in place. It features ownership of gold, silver and a live aboard yacht.

Ha, I know your joking but any way my take on it.
1. Anything can sell at the right price. Average Aust. house prices up app.350/400% in last 20 years. A 15% correction 2018/9 is a blip. Actually Tas. is booming
If there were roadworthys on boats I reckon over 70% listed for sale built last century would be scrapped. The reality is the price is artificially high on those 70% and compared to EU and USA prices on the others are holding up pretty well.
2. In simple terms the money is owed to us. I/you put $100 in the bank the bank lends it to someone creating a $100 debt. The issue is if the debt is owed to an overseas you and me,
3. It's inevitable a financial crash will come one day . How bad , when ?
not my worry .
4.WW111 . Military
But hey according to 'an inconvenient truth' we should all be dead or living on boats . I reckon he watched Water World too many times.

How long before you are going to get done? Cisco, after this "call to action"?

You all, be better off chilling out while you can!

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Concepcion said..

Such an interesting topic & as an economist its all too easy to fall for the supply and demand 'market' forces argument. As an interesting sidebar here, our sailing club is currently facing the classic 'crackerjack' dilemma - wonderful newish facilities (really - we are so lucky... and if only you east coasters knew what we have/what it costs us members to use...ha ha ); seriously ageing demography (at 52 I feel the youngest at club by far); declining 'broader' passion in sailing (mostly racing I think??); and the inevitable declining income v rising cost thing.

Perhaps this is a new topic, but I'd love to hear case studies on how these things have been tackled elsewhere - thoughts?

Imagine yourself going down to have a look at a race in Adelaide when you were 30 years younger. I think you could have looked at the small yacht class and seen boats like a Hood 23, a Van de Stadt Mini Tonner, Holland 25s, Dunco 29s and Serendipity 28s, probably all with dacron sails. You could have looked at that sort of boat and gone "hey, this is fun - I can get something I can handle easily with a couple of mates. It's simple, it's not going to cost a bomb, and it's got a few bunks and a toilet." For not much money or hassle, you could have got into the scene quite comfortably, with some fun racing to be had.

If you wanted to get something a bit more leading edge or prestigious, you could have bought a Sonata 8 and raced JOG, or a comfortable and solid Nantucket, Spencer 30 or Pion and raced with the half ton class. If you wanted something cheaper you could have bought a TS16 and sailed at Port River (?), a Usual or Austral 20 and raced with the dinghy clubs. The entry level into the sport was practical for quite a few people.

Imagine a 22 year old walking down to look at a race in Adelaide in 2019. The middle boat in the small yacht class seems to be a Sydney 36. That boat costs as much to run, as a reasonable serious amateur campaigner, as the average person earns in a year. It needs about eight or nine competent crew. Instead of having bits of wool as instruments like the middle boat in the small class probably did 30 years ago, it has electronics that need time and money. It's a completely different level of boat - and yet it's still a small and slow boat by many standards today.

Yes, there's still a J/24 or two racing around Adelaide - but that's a single-purpose racing boat and it feels very different to be racing a 24 footer against a Sydney 36 or 52 foot cat than it did in earlier times to race a 24 footer against 20 to 29 foot cruiser/racers. The sport has made itself too costly, with boats that need too many crew and are too complicated.

I remember years ago talking to someone from CYCSA or RSAYS. They were so happy that they got a bunch of new 40 foot racers in the club - but all I could wonder was how that sort of "bigger is better" attitude would affect those who would inevitably be left behind. We can see that now - instead of about six divisions the club now has about two. The same thing happens around Sydney, with the same sort of effects.

The annoying thing is that the problem could be fixed, just as it was decades ago. Sailing used to largely be a rich man's sport and yachting was for the very rich - but people inside the sport got active and made it cheaper by creating classes that ranged from Snipes, Herons and VJs to JOGgies, half tonners and TS16s. Leading people in the sport used to help make it cheaper. John Illingworth encouraged JOG racing in a very important way. THe CYCA used to have a Half Ton Committee that promoted the 30 foot cruiser/racers, and a JOG class that promoted the smaller boats. People could get into the sport at a high competitive level without spending a fortune. That attitude has been utterly left behind in a yachting scene that often seems to be elitist in its attitude towards money, but often encourages mediocrity in sailing.

One of the reasons I'm not racing my 36'er much is because we fall in between two stools. If we get serious and get into the offshore scene, we are regarded as a "6 knot **box". If we race locally, we just add to the perception that the sport is all about big (by local standards) boats and that will discourage the small boat owners and potential owners.

In off the beach classes we're often doing OK because we don't fall into the same trap; we encourage beginners and keep the prices down. Our little inland country club is concentrating mainly on Lasers and doing very well. My windsurfer class is all about simplicity and economy and is by some measures the fastest growing class in the world. We CAN grow the sport if we concentrate on making it accessible and encouraging for newcomers.

There's a couple of economists at RMIT who have used windsurfing for a case study on "technological overshoot" - the fact that sports and manufacturers tend to concentrate on making gear more and more expensive and less and less accessible because it's easier to sell to the committed users, but that beginners are therefore turned off. It's dead right, IMHO, and many of the top people in the windsurfing industry have learned the lesson. Hopefully sailing will learn the same lesson before the sport crashes too much more.

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Chris 249 said..

Concepcion said..

Such an interesting topic & as an economist its all too easy to fall for the supply and demand 'market' forces argument. As an interesting sidebar here, our sailing club is currently facing the classic 'crackerjack' dilemma - wonderful newish facilities (really - we are so lucky... and if only you east coasters knew what we have/what it costs us members to use...ha ha ); seriously ageing demography (at 52 I feel the youngest at club by far); declining 'broader' passion in sailing (mostly racing I think??); and the inevitable declining income v rising cost thing.

Perhaps this is a new topic, but I'd love to hear case studies on how these things have been tackled elsewhere - thoughts?

Imagine yourself going down to have a look at a race in Adelaide when you were 30 years younger. I think you could have looked at the small yacht class and seen boats like a Hood 23, a Van de Stadt Mini Tonner, Holland 25s, Dunco 29s and Serendipity 28s, probably all with dacron sails. You could have looked at that sort of boat and gone "hey, this is fun - I can get something I can handle easily with a couple of mates. It's simple, it's not going to cost a bomb, and it's got a few bunks and a toilet." For not much money or hassle, you could have got into the scene quite comfortably, with some fun racing to be had.

If you wanted to get something a bit more leading edge or prestigious, you could have bought a Sonata 8 and raced JOG, or a comfortable and solid Nantucket, Spencer 30 or Pion and raced with the half ton class. If you wanted something cheaper you could have bought a TS16 and sailed at Port River (?), a Usual or Austral 20 and raced with the dinghy clubs. The entry level into the sport was practical for quite a few people.

Imagine a 22 year old walking down to look at a race in Adelaide in 2019. The middle boat in the small yacht class seems to be a Sydney 36. That boat costs as much to run, as a reasonable serious amateur campaigner, as the average person earns in a year. It needs about eight or nine competent crew. Instead of having bits of wool as instruments like the middle boat in the small class probably did 30 years ago, it has electronics that need time and money. It's a completely different level of boat - and yet it's still a small and slow boat by many standards today.

Yes, there's still a J/24 or two racing around Adelaide - but that's a single-purpose racing boat and it feels very different to be racing a 24 footer against a Sydney 36 or 52 foot cat than it did in earlier times to race a 24 footer against 20 to 29 foot cruiser/racers. The sport has made itself too costly, with boats that need too many crew and are too complicated.

I remember years ago talking to someone from CYCSA or RSAYS. They were so happy that they got a bunch of new 40 foot racers in the club - but all I could wonder was how that sort of "bigger is better" attitude would affect those who would inevitably be left behind. We can see that now - instead of about six divisions the club now has about two. The same thing happens around Sydney, with the same sort of effects.

The annoying thing is that the problem could be fixed, just as it was decades ago. Sailing used to largely be a rich man's sport and yachting was for the very rich - but people inside the sport got active and made it cheaper by creating classes that ranged from Snipes, Herons and VJs to JOGgies, half tonners and TS16s. Leading people in the sport used to help make it cheaper. John Illingworth encouraged JOG racing in a very important way. THe CYCA used to have a Half Ton Committee that promoted the 30 foot cruiser/racers, and a JOG class that promoted the smaller boats. People could get into the sport at a high competitive level without spending a fortune. That attitude has been utterly left behind in a yachting scene that often seems to be elitist in its attitude towards money, but often encourages mediocrity in sailing.

One of the reasons I'm not racing my 36'er much is because we fall in between two stools. If we get serious and get into the offshore scene, we are regarded as a "6 knot **box". If we race locally, we just add to the perception that the sport is all about big (by local standards) boats and that will discourage the small boat owners and potential owners.

In off the beach classes we're often doing OK because we don't fall into the same trap; we encourage beginners and keep the prices down. Our little inland country club is concentrating mainly on Lasers and doing very well. My windsurfer class is all about simplicity and economy and is by some measures the fastest growing class in the world. We CAN grow the sport if we concentrate on making it accessible and encouraging for newcomers.

There's a couple of economists at RMIT who have used windsurfing for a case study on "technological overshoot" - the fact that sports and manufacturers tend to concentrate on making gear more and more expensive and less and less accessible because it's easier to sell to the committed users, but that beginners are therefore turned off. It's dead right, IMHO, and many of the top people in the windsurfing industry have learned the lesson. Hopefully sailing will learn the same lesson before the sport crashes too much more.

Couldn't agree more & I also totally resemble that remark Chris - 30 years or so ago seemed to be a revolution in sailing democracy & we would be wise to understand and repeat these trends. Also big thanks for reference to Jason Potts and Stuart Thomas work - I have a good friend in the Windsurfing / Kiting industry who is a lead designer & I can totally endorse the findings/ model used by the manufacturers and captured elitist media ( or should I say marketeerers here). Beyond the reality that real innovations are totally directed at the elite end, the vast majority of changes over the past 20 years in windsurfing have made little to no difference in performance or dare I say it mass market appeal.

Getting back to basics, however, has significant challenges. However, the Stand up paddle, and the recreation fishing Kayak seem to have done it.

As for our club - one that was designed around a time long lost - we have at least 10 empty berths for boats smaller than 10m... and a long waiting list for anything larger - that's the market at work.
rob

What the sport needs is a fast cheap trailer sailor around 27 ft with a lock down center board a small bulb on the bottom of it , of no more than 200 kg . And some extra 200 kg fixed ballast in center of the the hull . Outboard in well with easy lift and simple filler board to close when sailing , good simple accommodation and purpose built trailer .

Thats close to what i was thinking !!! probs faster not as comfy and more expensive , than i was thinking though .....

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slammin said..
I'm in the happy trailer sailer brigade, with a maxi trailer sailer. So I agree on most of your list but not on the bulb.

Also I seem to remember that the Far East is actually designed to by craned off the trailer. There's a picture in that ad and the width of the boat and length of the mast make it impractical to be an easily launched trailer boat. You'd need oversize permits and or daytime limitations.

I used the fe28 as example . .beam is 2.7.

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SandS said..
What the sport needs is a fast cheap trailer sailor around 27 ft with a lock down center board a small bulb on the bottom of it , of no more than 200 kg . And some extra 200 kg fixed ballast in center of the the hull . Outboard in well with easy lift and simple filler board to close when sailing , good simple accommodation and purpose built trailer .

Just buy that Eboat off Gumtree. Down to $5500 today. It's not 27 feet long but is the ideal trailer sailer. Not sure how they get around the maximum beam road rule.

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SandS said..
What the sport needs is a fast cheap trailer sailor around 27 ft with a lock down center board a small bulb on the bottom of it , of no more than 200 kg . And some extra 200 kg fixed ballast in center of the the hull . Outboard in well with easy lift and simple filler board to close when sailing , good simple accommodation and purpose built trailer .

Trouble is for a large trailer-sailer you need a large tow vehicle. If you want to save the planet and your wallet, driving a large vehicle for 98% of the time when a little Smart car would do, is not good. It is also not so easy to launch/retrieve single handed.

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Yara said..

SandS said..
What the sport needs is a fast cheap trailer sailor around 27 ft with a lock down center board a small bulb on the bottom of it , of no more than 200 kg . And some extra 200 kg fixed ballast in center of the the hull . Outboard in well with easy lift and simple filler board to close when sailing , good simple accommodation and purpose built trailer .

Trouble is for a large trailer-sailer you need a large tow vehicle. If you want to save the planet and your wallet, driving a large vehicle for 98% of the time when a little Smart car would do, is not good. It is also not so easy to launch/retrieve single handed.

the best way to deal with TS is to keep them on the hard at a club ,with the mast up ,and drop them in when needed .

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Chris 249 said..



Imagine yourself going down to have a look at a race in Adelaide when you were 30 years younger. I think you could have looked at the small yacht class and seen boats like a Hood 23, a Van de Stadt Mini Tonner, Holland 25s, Dunco 29s and Serendipity 28s, probably all with dacron sails. You could have looked at that sort of boat and gone "hey, this is fun - I can get something I can handle easily with a couple of mates. It's simple, it's not going to cost a bomb, and it's got a few bunks and a toilet." For not much money or hassle, you could have got into the scene quite comfortably, with some fun racing to be had.

Well I almost did that 45 years ago but the cost was twice that of a deposit on a unit at Bronte with ocean views in Sydney.

So I brought the unit and drove right around Aussie on my and my wife's bankcard!