Please help me with this!!!
All the gear I am referring to is of the lastest model.
I can get liquid force envys for half the price to the two other options... but I am not sold on their quality.
The wainmann looks utterly awesome. And the bar when sheeted out is really near to the rider.
All these kites are all rounders, but what would you rate as best and worst?
And is the difference not worth the extra coin?
Please help me out here, pretty urgent decision is necessary.
Rider: 75KG ADVANCED
With the wainmans the build quality is solid i have been riding them from when they came out and have travelled with them all over the world, the 9m, 6.5 and 15 are my oldest and still look new. i would have ridden the nine approx 450 times as i can uselessly get in two sessions a day in summer. i have never washed the kite itself only the lines, have rigged it up on gravel, palm fronds, rock and many other nasty surfaces and as long as you take a bit of care they will last.
so the extra coin is worth it as the old saying goes you pay for what you get.
These kites will last and not being one pump less to go wrong.
King of water sports in the UK sell them and will ship for free to OZ and makes them about 450 cheeper.
Thanks very much mate!!
Not suprised about their quality!!!
I heard that they can fly with only the leading edge inflated btw.
And I wrote to Lou Wainmann... they should only be releasing the next gen in 2014 or 15 (as they really happy with these and not much to change), so it nice to know that they are not going to be outdated in a few months!
If there is nothing wrong with the design why fix it.
The development and all the new models in all kites has not changed much in the last 2/3 years only the colours materials and the odd tweak and 99% of kiters would not be able to tell , kiting will be like windsurfing they will start to re hash some things as the models come out each
year. i saw a sail they other year that i used 15 odd years ago and spoke to the bloke and he told me it was the latest design.
Marketing is a great tool and having new gear is all about the look and the shops love it.
Have only ridden the smoke and the bandit 5. Both good at what they do. Wainman kills it in the surf. Bandits jump a little better but only marginally. Don't write off the envy though, not sure what you mean about quality issues I know riders who kve them. You are looking for an all rounder right. Give us more info on style, board choice and main conditions. They all sit within the three spectrums of surf, free ride and freestyle. You need to be sure where you sit in them for me to advice.
For instances the envy is awesome in the surf, but not a real jumper. The other two jump better, but for direct feel and tuning options you won't beat the rabbits. Also the bandit bar is average while the Wainmans is one of the best I have ever come across. More info to advise.
Also what else have you ridden? What feel do you like. That is important. The wainman has a particular feel about it.
Just stating my experience with build quality.
Ive got a problem with ball not sitting properly in the 2012 wainman inflation valve, it pushes to far inside the pocket (maybe the pocket has stretched or the edge has come slightly unglued) when inflating, then gets jammed. I also met someone who said there friend had the same problem. My old wainman has never had this problem but it feels like tissue paper now (the areas that arnt patched).
But i have never had a problem with a 2010 ENVY that has a lot of hours on it. Im actually really impressed with the build quality of the envy apart from a bit of wear issues with the bar.
No idea what the latest version of the envy is like people say they fly pretty good.
try cutting down the insert piece of you pump and this should stop the ball getting stuck and hold onto the valve while inserting the inflater hose. i have a battery pump[old bastard ] and have never had this problem, if you ever fly with them take out the deflate pin out of the valves and once you get to your destination push the pin in all the way and this will stop the air escaping from the struts after pump up as in flight they push out the other way under the pressure of the plane.
Hope this helps.
dont think cutting it off will help im using a larger size connection which doesnt even go the whole way into the socket, the pocket is just to large so when you pump it with a bit of force the ball just pushes out to the edge of the pocket and gets jammed under the fabric. when the bladder isnt very hard i can pop the ballout from under the fabric but it has a habit of just going back in as soon as i start pumping again. It also seems to be getting worse as the ball pocket stretches from it constantly happening im tempted to just try and remove the ball completely and go without it.
maybe a narrow connection may help as i may be able to get the air to blow past the ball and not blow the ball around
Thanks for all you advice guys!
With regard to more info, im pretty fortunate in that I get to kite a lot of locations mainly in mauritius island, gold coast and up the sunny coast... kiting a full wind range and mainly in waves. Also with a mystic warrior 3 harness and and a f-one acid which are both awesome!
At the moment I'm leaning toward the wainmann, I like what i've heard about it in the surf!
I heard that at the low end it has more grunt than upwind ability? Is this true? And is it significant enough to notice?
For half price...... the liquid force is sounding good, I just seem to be pretty repulsed by it from what I've heard. The thing is that I can get 4 of them for the price of 2 wainmanns... but at 75kg, it might be jsut as good to have only a 9m and a 12m wainmann than to have a 7, 9, 12 and 15 envy... and traveling with all that gear would be a bi*ch!!
What do you think guys???
Hey UGLY you inspired me to have a fiddle and i made a extra short connection, but now the bloody things not jamming so i cant try out some solutions.
Dan as im sure you know 15m envy is going to be pretty useless for 75kg once you get that big you really want a light wind styled kite and if you want to travel nothing beats a foil.
Cant really help you on your decision the new wainmans go upwind better than the old ones and they go upwind pretty well if you set the bridle to flatten them out. Nothing like a race or light wind kite but comparable to my 2010 envy.
But having said that there is nothing wrong with the envy, From my point of view im guessing if you want best value for money the envy wins if you want best kite, wainman wins.
Also if you have short arm syndrome like my wife your going to prefer the wainman, unless they have changed a lot since 2010
Personally I like to have a mongrel quiver, but lots of people would disagree.
Mainly in waves hey, so no freestyle? sB rider?
Well at a recent demo day a past envy rider and a decent rider at that was undecided between the wainman and the envy. So in the surf both will suffice. I've never flown a kite with such a decent bottom end as the wainman. It is just nuts. But the envy is no slouch either with its pointy delta type wing tips.
At 75 the 9 and 12 is all you will need. I'm at 75 and was going upwind on the 9m in stupid winds. Upwind ability is fine, not compared to a REO or a rebel or an edge or a VX though. But good enough. Not bad on the upwind setting.
What kite have you ridden man or kites and what did you like about them?
Dude nothing wrong with the envy as far as I know!
Thanks for all your advice guys, helping a lot!
Hahaha, Tweed, its the problem I always look forward to!!!
And thats a good point about the lightwind kite, didnt think of that at all mate!!
Ill just keep a 12 my biggest for now then.
Yeah you guessed right, im a SB rider at the moment... its a great kite, I just want to get some more experience on other kites and yeah the bar goes out a bit to far when over powered, not that have trouble recovering it, it is just uncomfortable and I dont like that there are so many people with them wherever I go.
I have flewn a few kites.... Bandit which is awesome for the speed, but wainmann also fast, Envy which flys increadibly well, especially the 7m, but not sold on the long term as i have seen a lot of torn LF kites, a couple norths and also some cores which seemed really slow.... but the worst kite i ever touched was by far a bws noise.... extremely slow when they get above 10m!!
If price was no issue (it is) which would you go for?
The wainmann 9 and 12 have different size bars, m and l, can you use one for both and which one would be better to take?
And as they diff sizes bars, i might go for a bandit and a wainmann.... Which one should I take as a 9 and which as a 12???
And yes freestyle when I have a chance
Looks like we cant convince you the envy is tough.
if your going to get a wainman make sure you get the 9 as its a classic kite with a huge range and better for the surf. With a 9m wainman a surfboard and a twin tip you would cover 90% of the usual wind range that is good for most peoples kiting. I have limited experience with the old version 12m wainman but wasnt that impressed with it compared to the 9m as its bottom end was not that much lower than the smoke, so most of the time you wouldnt even bother with it. For a while when i could only have 2 kites i used just a 15m speed3 and a 9m wainman and there was plenty of overlap.
For a 9 and 12 i would just get the med wainman bar.
If you want to do a mongerel quiver, be warned there are drawbacks, you will find it harder to get used to each kite and everytime you switch there will be a little bit of gumbyness till you remember how the new one fly's again.
For a larger kite its usual to get something with a better upwind angle such as an edge, around 10m seems to be the common upper limit for surf kites for our weight. Using a surfboard means you will likely want less power. If i was going to get 2 wainmans for the surf i would actually get the 7.5 and the 10.5. You can go bigger but its rare to have the right angle on the wind vs waves for a really memorable session, as you cant throw the kite around as much. Dunno what bandits are like in a 12m, probably pretty good as you said they have plenty of speed.
Thanks a lot for that guvner, I think im sold!
I will either go for the wainmann 9m and use it with my surf, or get the envy 9 and 12.
Thanks very much for all your help guys!!
But what has been your kite, the one you have flown and known?
Also this is where I can be of use, the 12m Boss has much much more bottom end than the 12m bandit. I actually owned a 12m bandit so know what Im talking about. Much more. The other day I would say it had the same or slightly more than my 14m lithuim!!
The 7.5m/10.5 punch idea has merit at your weight. Especially on a surfboard. What bottom end are you trying to achieve?
Do you get many days 25 to 30?
If you want some freestyle then wainman or bandit now, envy must come off your list.
What winds are you in mostly speed wise and heat wise. Base your main kite on that then build around. You know you could almost get away with the smoke and that's it, with board selection. I was out in silly light wind the other day on the smoke and a sector V3.
At 75kg and growing, the low end of a 9m smoke would be around 15 knots on a small twintip and around 13-14 on a surf board,
Do you think that is correct??
And if so, would the low end of a 12 be around 10 knots for a rider of 75kg??
Eppo, the kite that I use all the time is the SB 10m..
That is awesome to know!!! Really stoked about the low end!!
The thing is that the period of the year that im in Mauritius and here in Qld is always the low wind time... but that said, I do get a full wind range when lucky... but often I have to sit around with 16-18 knots which is frustrating!!
Also very suprised to hear envy not good for freestyle!! That is pretty important to me!!
Yeap, its looking pretty marginal between 1/ just the smoke with a board, 2/ the smoke and boss... 3/ envys, but with that knowledge, envys not looking too hot!!
And please take a look at my post just above
your wind ranges sound probably about right, but really hard to tell as all boards are different and even on the same board peoples power needs/wants can be drastically different.
Eppo can probably tell you how much a smoke will compare to your switchblade but im guessing it cant have that much more power if any.
RPM, I thought that's why they push them that much also, but I spoke with some importer mates at another kite school who mainly pushs them so they get all the discounts... and at cost the LF kites are actually no diff to the top brands.... give or take 50 bucks....
Yeah no doubt theres 10x more there than any other beach in aus... and it is the noob factor kicking in!! 4 sure..
''It's like comparing a Hyundai I30 to a Mercedes SLK''.... hahahah.
Eppo please advise for low end in terms of knots.. cheers..
Okay to start with their is nothing wrong with the quality of the liquid force kites, whatever you have heard discount it. They have been around for a while now and for a reason so don't make a decision based on construction. That being said the wainman kite construction and bar is second to none. As good as norths and I've owned and flown norths, almost the benchmark with kite construction ( except their bar) in my humble opinion although they are almost over engineered and heavy. Although hearing awesome things about the Neo, ...I digress.
Surprised to hear you are sitting around in 16 to 18 with a 10m switchblade, they are also very powerful kites. This doesn't sound right?
Well on a SB yeh 15 knots easily with ride skill. I have been cranking upwind on less although on a sector V3. On my cardboard wave which goes early but not as much as a SB, in 15 and maybe less the other day I cranked a good 500m upwind just cause. They pack a punch but also so quick you can move the kite quickly to generate speed. Brilliant in the waves, not REO brilliant but better than good enough for mere mortals like us.
But the beauty is, get on a TT and start looping and jumping to your hearts content. That being said although the kite is incredibly stable and reliable and almost idiot proof what I have found is to jump well you actually have to be technically sound. I'm currently talking to those in the know to improve. Most other kites I've flown are more plug and play as far as jumping. A bit of an anomaly. But it loops real tight and pulls throughout the loop so you know where it is at all times.
Can you demo one? They have their own unique feel in my mind just as north has its own feel, ozone, Airush, they all have their distinct flavour. You really have to have a good crack on one for a number of hours to really understand this. I'm still getting my head around it. It is very direct, you can almost ignore the two pulleys and the thing they call a bridal, it is so short and simple, very different feel to the bridal kites I've flown. It's more along norths line in that sense. But heavier feel than say ozone.
The boss in my very short ride has a huge bottom end, I reckon the 13 to 14 knots you would not be dogging it but haves to of power. As I said I put a lithuim 14m up and I would say the Boss had more power! But different power altogether.
But don't discount the envy either, especially on quality, not being good quality is well utter bullsh1t.
Ride all three and make sure you do. Don't buy on our stupid advice, it helps narrow down options but in the end we are all built different and a kite that someone loves, someone can hate.
So wainman, either get the 9m and maybe a light wind board option or as someone said the 7.5 and 10.5 option actually makes a lot of sense on a SB. If I was a SB rider I reckon I might seriously consider that.
Can anyone comment on weather the lowend of the envy is different to lowend of the wainmann??
Sorry buddy I fall short here. Pm westozkiteboarding Jason will know this answer.
Havent ridden the Envy or Wainman, but nearly purchased both.
Demo the Bandit 6 before you buy anything if you can.
I rarely ever go here or make a comment for fear of getting bashed and wont comment upon performance or flying style as there are others far better qualified to do so. I am the Liquid Force importer so wanted that known upfront but my comments are just directed at setting the record straight re LF build and quality....
In 2013 it is second to none. I wont claim it is the BEST of any on the market but it is certainly the equal to ANY. If any disbelievers doubt it I simply ask you to pump one up one day and take a good look at the construction for yourself....you wont need any further convincing
Features will include the BEST quality tejin fabric on the market (used by only a few other top brands), double layered and double stitched dacron, overlapped and glued seams, molded EVA edge bumpers.....the list goes on. The fastest inflating one pump system and the best pump on the market
ALL kites have had some questionnable quality issues in the past, Liquid Force is no exception. But the current range is top quality and has been for the last 12 months or so...I cant really say any more but yeh have a look for yourself!