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Macroscien need your brain !!

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Created by eppo 1 month ago, 15 Feb 2020
eppo
WA, 7504 posts
15 Feb 2020 10:54AM
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Macroscien (and anyone else who has an engineering brain)... I am trying to design a simple handle pass simulator for my son at home.
he's got all his surface passes (both ways) and has been moving into air passes all season but can't seem to break into that next level.

While he is getting some instruction from some travelling pros they all conclude he's just not strong enough at the moment. that being said they can't fault his technique.


so, be good if he can at least work on this at home on the basic bio mechanics of it all.

so ... ideas ?


thanks in advance to the Seabreeze crew.

ps I've already got a simple setup on the pergola but it needs to carry a load away from him as per an unhooked kite.

Sandfoot
VIC, 440 posts
15 Feb 2020 2:27PM
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eppo said..
Macroscien (and anyone else who has an engineering brain)... I am trying to design a simple handle pass simulator for my son at home.
he's got all his surface passes (both ways) and has been moving into air passes all season but can't seem to break into that next level.

While he is getting some instruction from some travelling pros they all conclude he's just not strong enough at the moment. that being said they can't fault his technique.


so, be good if he can at least work on this at home on the basic bio mechanics of it all.

so ... ideas ?


thanks in advance to the Seabreeze crew.

ps I've already got a simple setup on the pergola but it needs to carry a load away from him as per an unhooked kite.


Mini Tramp ???

eppo
WA, 7504 posts
15 Feb 2020 12:34PM
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That might be part of it. It's got to have the front lines spring loaded somehow (that can have different loading as to emulate different kite sizes).
the main reason is to cut down the number of crashes he has to take it to the next level. 4.5 hrs straight trying to land a blind judge at the pond two days ago. It's gonna take its toll on a small 12 yr old body.

Gazuki
WA, 1111 posts
15 Feb 2020 1:02PM
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Here is an easier solution;





eppo
WA, 7504 posts
15 Feb 2020 1:26PM
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Bahahhahahah. If we were Russian or Chinese it would be the solution.


so he's riding out there with Stephen A (can't remember his Austrian surname, but he's currently 4th in the world, really nice fella") getting advice... Stephen goes in for lunch etc for 2 hours, comes back for a session, kids still out there eating Sh1t, and they ride again for 1.5hrs!!



so perseverance is there (he loves it) but I know some stuff on dry land is gonna help reduce the overall toll.



I built a board off sim years ago and it accelerated my learning and reduced the pain, so surely this could help.



come on Gaz I've seen your man cave, your no slouch in the engineering department. Ideas bro?

psychojoe
WA, 692 posts
15 Feb 2020 1:39PM
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I don't actually have an idea, but maybe have a look at how the reformer Pilates machines work. It might inspire a simple fix.

Gazuki
WA, 1111 posts
15 Feb 2020 3:45PM
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All jokes aside, I know hes a tad too young for weights but a lat pull down machine is probably your best option, that or a rower cranked right up??? Just need to build those Lats.

Gateman
QLD, 337 posts
15 Feb 2020 5:59PM
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Learning handle pass at wake park involved pulling handle towards you first then spinning to grab it but sounds like he has this sorted. Have you thought about a bungy cord? Loaded up by leaning body against it and spinning for the grab?

Note that lifting weights not recommended for kids under 16, body weight exercises only. My 11yo is a state level gymnast, looks like a scrawny weed but can out push-up, out chin up anyone I know. His strength to weight ratio is phenomenal and never done weights but trains 14 hours per week at gymnastics. Reckon chin up bar, planks, dips, pushups etc will strengthen your 12yo in no time.

Weta
WA, 871 posts
15 Feb 2020 7:28PM
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+1 For body weight exercises Vs weights at that age. I also thought of the blue bungy cords the physios give you for rehab which work on resistance for increasing strength. As for setting up a simulator i am pretty sure i saw a vid a few years back of one of the pros with a setup using a suspended kite bar and lines over a trampoline.

I'd see what's on You Tube re the simulator

eppo
WA, 7504 posts
15 Feb 2020 8:59PM
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Great ideas thanks. I agree with some body weight strengthening ideas. He's a pretty stocky and strong lad but yeh some specific training is worth investigating for sure. Gotta be fun though, not sure I want to embark on a gymnast style of training. That's total commitment stuff that is ...he's already got that with his extra footy clinics he does. Kiting has to stay fun.


Ive considered the bungee, elastic type rubber to create resistance... but I"d prefer say a spring type system that could be ratcheted up to increase the pressure, to test his technique and level at which it all falls apart. Not sure what that means.

The way I see it I need a way to provide resistance loads that can be altered through the front lines / chicken loop. Plus some way to slightly alter the back line lengths. Can't have them with a totally fixed length as the kite canopy will move and change. I've fixed them before and as you pass the bar, the spin on the back lines tensions a fixed lengths up to the point it's hard to pass it.


anyhow keep them coming ...

not much on YouTube ...

Pilates machine you say ??

shi thouse
WA, 880 posts
15 Feb 2020 10:54PM
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Puberty is around the corner for him Eppo. Wait for the hormones to kick in and he will be getting plenty of wrist strengthening exercises.


Should help with his handle passes!!

psychojoe
WA, 692 posts
16 Feb 2020 7:19AM
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Yeah, my kids have only got a trapeze hanging from shadesail poles but they're much younger than your boy. I reckon if you combine with an idea from the reformer, mostly springs and height adjustment, you might get somewhere. You could also add weights to the back end of the string ala sash windows.




eppo
WA, 7504 posts
16 Feb 2020 8:07AM
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shi thouse said..
Puberty is around the corner for him Eppo. Wait for the hormones to kick in and he will be getting plenty of wrist strengthening exercises.


Should help with his handle passes!!





Bahahhaha

i think the problem with springs, elastic bands is that they don't emulate a constant load through the front lines.

Mucked around with weights with the bar / center line through a pulley yesterday and it seemed relatively realistic.
that being said anyone know of a spring system that can have its spring load increased or decreased ?


But in my true frank spencer style, I was standing next to the weights, he missed the bar and the as the weights crashed on the floor they landed on my foot... then the bar came swinging through at speed and took my right leg out.


.... well my son thought it was funny

ps he almost grabbed the bar yesterday arvo at the pond. So damn close.

SaveTheWhales
WA, 1749 posts
16 Feb 2020 8:25AM
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You really gotta step back and answer the question "Honestly" Is it you or your son that wants this to happen ????

Look at all the pro guys and gals in knee braces as well as those still in their teens - their funked up for life now..
If he is not physically strong enough - then his Tendons connecting bone to bone are not strong enough either !

Like Gatemans son - if he wants to be good, hes gotta do the hard yards training, your shortcuts will end up in surgery.
Let him be a kid - he'll grow up and fill out in no time anyway..

shi thouse
WA, 880 posts
16 Feb 2020 8:35AM
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....besides, freestyle is on the way out. Nobody (apart from those who do it) really appreciates it or understands the difficulty of it all. Get him to focus on freeriding - KOA style. It's what the crowd want to see.

eppo
WA, 7504 posts
16 Feb 2020 9:25AM
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SaveTheWhales said..
You really gotta step back and answer the question "Honestly" Is it you or your son that wants this to happen ????

Look at all the pro guys and gals in knee braces as well as those still in their teens - their funked up for life now..
If he is not physically strong enough - then his Tendons connecting bone to bone are not strong enough either !

Like Gatemans son - if he wants to be good, hes gotta do the hard yards training, your shortcuts will end up in surgery.
Let him be a kid - he'll grow up and fill out in no time anyway..






Appreciate your concern but it's not me at all. I'm always calling him in off the water and I don't really enjoy all the damn drives to the pond either !! All athletes carry injuries from their pursuits ask any footy player or motor cross rider. engineering solutions please, not your own personal philosophies on bringing up my child.


shihouse you know he foils, working on strapless SB stuff, wave rides on the SB and also is working on his board offs and loops! Freestyle is not on the way out....just one of the disciplines and the hardest for sure. A simulator I think will reduce the crashes on the water.

Underoath
QLD, 2413 posts
16 Feb 2020 12:02PM
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Does he get a new rotator cuff next year for Chrissy?

SaveTheWhales
WA, 1749 posts
16 Feb 2020 10:18AM
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Eppo

Your posting on a public forum about a kid who is not strong enough.. sounds like one of those dumb Facebook stories if they don't get a 'feel good' response lol.

From my years of teaching rehab and sports specific training for state National and World championship competitor's - it's a simple device to overcome this problem.

But like you say - I'll keep my training kids 'Opinion' to myself

AquaPlow
QLD, 861 posts
16 Feb 2020 2:02PM
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As per Sandfoot..
We had Olympic size trampoline beside swimming pool.. Overlapping edge + deep.
A handle was also setup into a large overlapping mango tree..
Strength and body position awareness..
We did not promote weights as still growing.. All my kids liked trampoline gymnastics.. And the instructor was good at pushing them the right amount.. This was the key to starting aerials.. Really pee'ed me off how quickly he nailed. My wish list
Take home I felt was body position awareness...
Cheers
AP

eppo
WA, 7504 posts
16 Feb 2020 8:40PM
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SaveTheWhales said..
Eppo

Your posting on a public forum about a kid who is not strong enough.. sounds like one of those dumb Facebook stories if they don't get a 'feel good' response lol.

From my years of teaching rehab and sports specific training for state National and World championship competitor's - it's a simple device to overcome this problem.

But like you say - I'll keep my training kids 'Opinion' to myself



I don't want a feel good response... I want some bloody engineering solutions to a specific Problem, not some platform for you to blow wind up your own ass about all your experience with national and world champions whatever the Fck that means. So yeh keep it to yourself.
god this forum truly is full of narcissistic tosses, no wonder most kiters I know don't bother with it anymore.

anyhow over and out. I'm done.
Ps Sincere thanks to those that actually tried to offer solutions to actual problem. I will consult with some people I know who can focus and deliver options rather than their own ****en moralistic opinions.

SaveTheWhales
WA, 1749 posts
17 Feb 2020 12:13PM
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eppo

Ohh come now honey - sit on my lap and i'll wipe away your tears :(
and dont be so hard on yourself that other kids have parents that sought expert sports specific knowledge to strengthen them up, only a handful of people will ever do what others wont.. due to ignorance or figjam-ness.
You were mumbling about an engineering solution between tears.. its pretty simple to figure out when I also come from a high performance /problem solving motor racing background - Age and experience is a great thing for helping people who "dont feel threatened by their own truth'.

K.I.S.S

MrFreeze
255 posts
17 Feb 2020 12:29PM
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eppo said..

SaveTheWhales said..
Eppo

Your posting on a public forum about a kid who is not strong enough.. sounds like one of those dumb Facebook stories if they don't get a 'feel good' response lol.

From my years of teaching rehab and sports specific training for state National and World championship competitor's - it's a simple device to overcome this problem.

But like you say - I'll keep my training kids 'Opinion' to myself




I don't want a feel good response... I want some bloody engineering solutions to a specific Problem, not some platform for you to blow wind up your own ass about all your experience with national and world champions whatever the Fck that means. So yeh keep it to yourself.
god this forum truly is full of narcissistic tosses, no wonder most kiters I know don't bother with it anymore.

anyhow over and out. I'm done.
Ps Sincere thanks to those that actually tried to offer solutions to actual problem. I will consult with some people I know who can focus and deliver options rather than their own ****en moralistic opinions.


Hmmmmm, is there something I can help you with ElCap?

You seem to be consistently loosing control and slipping back into bad habits. Profanity is unbecoming of the great one.

Think of the kiddies. You know the saying, monkey see monkey do.

iandvnt
QLD, 563 posts
17 Feb 2020 5:56PM
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People took the piss out of aaron harlow when his dad made him a loop around his waist to help learn handle passes. Then he became world champion without it .. doing handle passes.

Simsurf
WA, 220 posts
17 Feb 2020 6:35PM
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Not related to your problem Eppo but I can just imagine you at the Pond. Must be painful

stray
SA, 165 posts
17 Feb 2020 9:08PM
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Do the pulley set up but use a couple of pulleys so you can have the weight hanging out of the way somewhere.
maybe run the steering lines through a pulley and connect to a light bungy for a realistic bar feel. Adjust the bungy so that it goes slack when the bar is fully out.

cauncy
WA, 7754 posts
18 Feb 2020 8:25PM
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Young fella just took out the WA junior states
So going pretty well

Plummet
4684 posts
19 Feb 2020 12:24AM
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I've got nothing other than hooking up a giant gantry over a trampoline with the bar dangling from the gantry,

There was another way we goofed around and that was to find a big tree on a slope that you could hang a rope swing bar from. Ride a landboard down the slope holding to the rope swing bar and swing-out. Do your tricks as you are swinging,

Of course, if you stuff up you crash onto the ground unless you have a magical location with a tree on a slope with a rope that swings over water.


BrendanRobb
36 posts
19 Feb 2020 1:33PM
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these guys might have some tips, or their infrastructure might be set up for what you need? flyingtrapezeperth.com/

weebitbreezy
443 posts
20 Feb 2020 9:54PM
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This video shows how wakeboarders set up for training with a trampoline. If you skip ahead you can see that they talk about using a bungie/elastic section in the rope to simulate tension being added back into the lines after you slack the lines out.



Might be a few ideas here that might work for you?

ewan kite
VIC, 919 posts
21 Feb 2020 12:57PM
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Eppo,

Was great to see the dude shredding in the pond, I'm sure he will get there soon!

A few things that helped me at that age (or a little older but still as far from puberty)

- Make him watch (this shouldn't be an issue) as many video's of people doing the tricks as possible. From there, film him doing it and compare what he is doing wrong. If you want to send me video's of him, I'd be more than happy to give you feedback - ewanjaspan@gmail.com

- A bar rigged to a door or a tree, might not have the tension etc, but just getting the muscle memory down and imagining the tricks over and over will definitely help. With proper technique, not much strength is needed.

- A weight or full water bottle rigged to a bar by a short rope. He can swing this around his body and pass the bar behind his back constantly. Again this would help build muscle memory of keeping the bar close to the hips, passing accurately in the middle of the bar (very important) and just making the pass happen naturally.

- He should be thinking about the moves all the time. I'm sure he already is, but that's what I did at that age haha

Anyway, stoked to see groms progressing around the country. Hopefully next season when I'm out there again we can catch some more sessions and I'm sure one day he will teach me a thing or two.

Samuellae
NSW, 41 posts
22 Feb 2020 9:44PM
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eppo said..
Macroscien (and anyone else who has an engineering brain)... I am trying to design a simple handle pass simulator for my son at home.
he's got all his surface passes (both ways) and has been moving into air passes all season but can't seem to break into that next level.

While he is getting some instruction from some travelling pros they all conclude he's just not strong enough at the moment. that being said they can't fault his technique.


so, be good if he can at least work on this at home on the basic bio mechanics of it all.

so ... ideas ?


thanks in advance to the Seabreeze crew.

ps I've already got a simple setup on the pergola but it needs to carry a load away from him as per an unhooked kite.


This has been a fun project, I tested a range of metal springs and straps at Bunnings- ended up deciding on 3 occy straps (this brand comes in 4 different lengths, these are the 70cm-ish)....I've taken off all the lines from an old bar from the swivel upwards, and one occy from the bar ends to the swivel to replicate the back line tension:

I tie it to about a 3 metre tall tree (not this fence pictured)....then shuffle back with a modified skaty with foot straps....then lean back and pull in for a pop. I travel about 2 metres horizontal from the pop and it feels really close to the kite line tension in the air and on landing.

Centre lines lead up to a swivel with some electric tape to hold the occys through it...total cost was about $30 plus the old kite bar and straps I had hanging around~

Happy boosting!



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"Macroscien need your brain !!" started by eppo