Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

Zeeko Spitfire XLW vs. SUP type foil

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Created by emmafoils > 9 months ago, 25 Feb 2018
emmafoils
45 posts
25 Feb 2018 10:49PM
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I know the Spitfire has been discussed a lot but I am interested in current opinions comparing the XLW wings with bigger foils such as the Takuma, J-Shapes Cruzer, bigger Slingshot and Naish wings, etc.

Thanks

bigtone667
NSW, 1007 posts
26 Feb 2018 5:08AM
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The Spitfire with XLW wing does not have same low end as a big Naish Surf Thrust wing, but the Spitfire has a much higher top end.

The Zeeko SUP canard should be closer to the Naish in low end performance, and assuming they keep the current profile of the wing, still have a higher top end.

RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
26 Feb 2018 6:37PM
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Zeeko will soon have a Sup style wing to suit the kitefoil fuselage

warwickl
NSW, 1093 posts
26 Feb 2018 6:44PM
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I want one ASAP

emmafoils
45 posts
26 Feb 2018 5:43PM
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I am curious about the interest in the Zeeko SUP wing. Are you interested in kiting with it or paddling? Do you find that the XLW's are not slow enough?

RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
26 Feb 2018 7:54PM
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I was asking Nicolas about using the Windfoil wing on a kitefoil for waves and was told it is too high aspect ratio for waves. But he is currently working on that Sup wing.
how far along it is wasn't said.

bigtone667
NSW, 1007 posts
26 Feb 2018 8:48PM
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Select to expand quote
emmafoils said..
I am curious about the interest in the Zeeko SUP wing. Are you interested in kiting with it or paddling? Do you find that the XLW's are not slow enough?


For me, the XLW was still too fast in a wave.

I rode 30+ waves/runners this arvo on SUP size foil. Top speed was 30 k's.... more than enough to surf small waves and carve.





emmafoils
45 posts
26 Feb 2018 7:02PM
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That's a great graph. What foil were you using? What would have been different if you were using the Spitfire XLW?

bigtone667
NSW, 1007 posts
27 Feb 2018 4:29AM
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emmafoils said..
That's a great graph. What foil were you using? What would have been different if you were using the Spitfire XLW?


XLW would have been faster over all (36 to 40k) with more spikes as I hopped onto the waves if I couldn't immediately turn left or right on the wave. For me, once I gain too much speed, I have to wait till I slow down to carve. This is not always possible with the continual push of the wave immediately behind you.

So I have found the fatter slower wing helps me enormously.

Naish Surf Thrust SUP wing. I have used other larger wings with the same result.

Kamikuza
QLD, 3610 posts
27 Feb 2018 8:45PM
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Been riding an Axis SUP wing past few days, 720mm wide, flat water and small waves. Not sure if it's production model or prototype...I know we've tried three different rear wings, and two sizes mast. The last set up I rode was excellent fun.

Foils is next to nothing, stable and fun, obviously feels like more wing in the water but not power hungry and it flies upwind. Nimble enough to be fun but of course not as sharp as a smaller kite foil. Coasts on the waves nicely, my limiting factor is the kite falling out of the sky!

Haven't tried a Spitfire. Local in NZ has one with XL wings and prefers that to regular foils.... But he hasnt yet tried the SUP foil cos I hogged it all day

So, try a big wing if you can...

Kamikuza
QLD, 3610 posts
28 Feb 2018 8:14PM
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Rode a 940mm wing today, side by side with a Spitfire with XL wings. . . . Wind was light, reported as up to 16 knots, and I was using a 7m Enduro. Small lady riding TT was on a 9m FX and going just upwind.

Spitfire felt like I needed more kite, more speed and/or more skill to ride fast and smooth. Felt very loose after the big wings, and even my regular sized kitefoil. It felt like it'd be too fast for actually riding waves too, but I only had 20 minutes on it. It's not the answer to what I want to do, but as I said the owner loves it.

The 940mm wing was a hoot. If you can get out of the water and onto the board, you're already foiling. Lightwind technique for water starting was just to wang the kite back and forth in the sky and build up enough oomph to get out of the water

It was hilarious to be foiling around at what must have been walking speed, watching everyone else zoom past, then sort of noodling back and forth on the swell; you could gybe back and forth on the swell without outrunning it, just gotta keep the kite flying. Change-of-direcdtion-gybes were super easy to do, hardest thing was not overflying the kite cos you really don't need it to complete the gybe, and the foil wasn't fast enough around to catch up to the kite. Downlooping was a must!

Again, wasn't power hungry (7m kite!!!) and honked upwind, just wasn't a speed demon. The wing was probably too stable to be what I consider fun but it was more experiment than anything. I think it'd be good for riding small waves with minimal kite, but would be physically hard work -- needs a bit of body English. A fun experiment though . . . !

RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
1 Mar 2018 6:44AM
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It is very rare for anyone to click with a Spitfire in first couple of hours of riding.
there is a point where you do click, maybe unlearning some incompatible techniques or get the different muscle memory, or whatever.
When coming off an old style foil they really just feel like a more nervous version.
its when you really get into some real waves that it makes sense.

dafish
NSW, 1301 posts
1 Mar 2018 6:52AM
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Kamikuza said..
Rode a 940mm wing today, side by side with a Spitfire with XL wings. . . . Wind was light, reported as up to 16 knots, and I was using a 7m Enduro. Small lady riding TT was on a 9m FX and going just upwind.

Spitfire felt like I needed more kite, more speed and/or more skill to ride fast and smooth. Felt very loose after the big wings, and even my regular sized kitefoil. It felt like it'd be too fast for actually riding waves too, but I only had 20 minutes on it. It's not the answer to what I want to do, but as I said the owner loves it.

The 940mm wing was a hoot. If you can get out of the water and onto the board, you're already foiling. Lightwind technique for water starting was just to wang the kite back and forth in the sky and build up enough oomph to get out of the water

It was hilarious to be foiling around at what must have been walking speed, watching everyone else zoom past, then sort of noodling back and forth on the swell; you could gybe back and forth on the swell without outrunning it, just gotta keep the kite flying. Change-of-direcdtion-gybes were super easy to do, hardest thing was not overflying the kite cos you really don't need it to complete the gybe, and the foil wasn't fast enough around to catch up to the kite. Downlooping was a must!

Again, wasn't power hungry (7m kite!!!) and honked upwind, just wasn't a speed demon. The wing was probably too stable to be what I consider fun but it was more experiment than anything. I think it'd be good for riding small waves with minimal kite, but would be physically hard work -- needs a bit of body English. A fun experiment though . . . !



How much do you weigh? I am at 84 kilos and with the XLW wings my quiver is 10 Reo for 8 to 14 knots. If I see consistent white caps around 12 plus I am on the 8 Reo. Yesterday was about a steady 15 knots and I used my 6 Reo (V4) for the whole session. Could march up wind no problem. Can ride it super slow. Got into a few little waves but nothing over waist high. Only problem with the surf being so small is that I ran out of water a few times and ended up with a face plant or two. So, in saying that, I would not say the SP with the XLW wings is power hungry. I can really slow this thing down with a few carves and can get it to gybe at an almost standstill.
By the way, do you have a link to the 940mm wing? That is pretty big. Just curious ,
cheers.

Kamikuza
QLD, 3610 posts
1 Mar 2018 12:08PM
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Lots more than you :)

I usually ride my foil on a 10m kite until I can get on the TT with the same kite, maybe 20 knots. Below 10 knots I'll go straight for the big foil kite. Here in NZ I've been riding the ten when the other foilers are on 9s. We didn't really get any white caps, but we were on the estuary. The wing makes all the difference.

Not knocking the Spitfire, just relaying my experience. Clearly there's something in it, eh.

It's a SUP wing. Not sure if it's a production version yet. Or maybe it's the surf wing and the 720 is the SUP wing. Below is the kite foil (580mm?) then 720mm and 920 on the bottom. Looks even more massive on the board

Just an experiment. Too big for use with kites I think, unless you really like going slow and a super stable board. I'd have one for a change of pace every now and then, but I think the 720 is about the sweet spot for me.




dafish
NSW, 1301 posts
1 Mar 2018 3:27PM
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Makes sense. I just measure my Stringy and found it to be 600mm, so adding 60 per side would not feel too out of place.

Kamikuza
QLD, 3610 posts
1 Mar 2018 6:42PM
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And it's thicker then my kite foil, even scaled up. IIRC it's 15% vs 10% of the original.

RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
12 Apr 2018 6:26AM
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The XXLW wings for Sup/Surf are close. And those interested in them for Kiting, this is a quote from Nicolas.


No AVS yet on the xxlw wings,
ABout the mast length, 70cm for surfing is for me a must.
I tried several length and 70cm is a good compromise except if you need to take care of the depth of the water.
The 1300wings can be used for kites, (max speed about 18-20knots, but usully you'll ride at 12-15knots max) but no jumps allowed as the wings are very big compare to the xlw.

Best Regards,
Nicolas

bigtone667
NSW, 1007 posts
12 Apr 2018 11:02AM
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Same fuselage as the current XLW???

RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
12 Apr 2018 12:16PM
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Select to expand quote
bigtone667 said..
Same fuselage as the current XLW???


Yes

max_ob
QLD, 163 posts
12 Apr 2018 6:01PM
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Select to expand quote
RAL INN said..

bigtone667 said..
Same fuselage as the current XLW???



Yes


but is the the mast to board connection beefed up?

RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
12 Apr 2018 6:05PM
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I will check. But I believe the mast for the Sup/Surf Spitfire uses the Windfoil mount plate.

emmafoils
45 posts
15 Dec 2018 5:25AM
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I wanted to revisit this topic since the popularity of large wings such as the Moses 633 and Liquid Force Impulse. Any experience on how the XLW or XXLW compares in terms of lift and size of kite needed?

Any more thoughts on XLW for wave riding with or without AVS?

Thanks

RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
15 Dec 2018 12:00PM
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So far the only direct comparison I have been part of is the XXLW on 90cm mast and a Takuma copy.
the lift on XXLW is smoother and less likely to pop you off on a waterstart.
the XXLW will turn like a conventional foil but easier it will also carve with back foot bias and feel agile doing it.

the lift is about same as 1500cm2 conventional foil.
the top speed looks about 20 kts but is mostly comfy around 10kts
it will pick up power from practically slush and I have been in head high swell and the only hassle there was keeping line tension.
the XLW wings would have been better in the bigger swell

emmafoils
45 posts
15 Dec 2018 6:08PM
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This may have been covered but I want to be clear: If I get the Spitfire with XLW wings and 90 cm mast with plate mount, can I just add the XXLW wings to this setup in the future or do I have to change something else?

RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
16 Dec 2018 6:44AM
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The XXLW Spitfire has to use the Windfoil mount plate which is reinforced with the outer sleeve.
the XXLW wings put too much load on the std. kitefoil Mount plate.
The XXLW wings are tuned to the Windfoil mount plate to give same centre of lift as the std Spitfire so bolting it to a zeeko board means nothing changes in feet position .
.
I use a 90cm mast because I like it for kitefoil and I am using same foil for Windfoiling and same foil for Sup foil and Surf foiling.
i might try a 70cm mast but I have just found that maybe before my Sup and Surf foiling career progresses, I probably need to learn how to do Sup and prone surfing.
turns out paddling in and standing up on a surf Foil is not as easy as I expected:)

Lambie
VIC, 709 posts
28 Dec 2018 8:14PM
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Got my Zeeko Spitfire with XXLW wings and 70 cm mast today - cant wait to get on the water !!

Emmafoils - the mounting plate for the XXLW spitfire seems to have a deeper collar than the mounting plate for my 90cm Bullet mast - so are a bit different.

Ive been been told that I could use the longer bullet mast and mounting plate combo and just change over the fusilage from the bullet to the spitfire - as you can see I have a board that has a tuttle mount so maybe it makes no difference ??

Oh BTW - the bit of kite line around the mount plate is there because Ive lost a foil to the depths when I hit a floating object and the retaining stainless screws pulled through the brass barrels in the foil - now have it teathered to a rear foot strap screw position just in case !!






RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
5 Jan 2019 7:49PM
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The bullet mast mount plate has a collar but the Green&White foil and Spitfire kitefoil do not.
the std Spitfire kitefoil Mount plate also has mast further forward and at a small angle.

The XXLW on a 90cm mast with the Windfoil mount plate ( as in Lambie's pics) when bolted to my Pocket Air board with inserts, works fine with no change to strap position.
But the top speed is low and as you approach its top speed pressure on front leg increase.
But speed is not in its design spec so not a problem. More a indicator of getting to top end.
Not sure its real pumping but a sharp climb then shallow dive works well to get through lulls.

RAL INN
VIC, 2626 posts
9 Jan 2019 8:38AM
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The XXLW Spitfire wings are 560mm span. Something I decided to check after a comment on my shin scars.
All of which were from conventional foils.
This all came to mind as I was landing the other day and I noticed how I had become rather relaxed about being in water with foil.
I think if I had to go back to a conventional foil firstly the rear wing would shred me. Second is that if I had to have the front conventional wing big enough to match the 1500cm2 of lift the XXLW has, it to would add more scars.



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"Zeeko Spitfire XLW vs. SUP type foil" started by emmafoils