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Toeside on a foil...

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Created by horey69 > 9 months ago, 12 Nov 2017
horey69
QLD, 275 posts
12 Nov 2017 4:59PM
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Any tips for getting around from heel side to toeside on a foil, either on the water or on the foil.
I can get round then lose power or get pulled off the board.
Sorry if this has been covered already.

juandesooka
258 posts
12 Nov 2017 3:18PM
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horey69 said..
Any tips for getting around from heel side to toeside on a foil, either on the water or on the foil.
I can get round then lose power or get pulled off the board.
Sorry if this has been covered already.


It came easy for me ... but maybe because first few sessions were behind a boat, which means being pulled straight "downwind", so the heelside toeside thing was pretty much automatic in steering back and forth in the wake.

Losing power: I have always found that riding toeside I have maybe 2-thirds power of heelside. So if underpowered on foil, it can be hard to stay up on it sometimes, fall back to water surface. Maybe try using a slightly more powered kite while figuring it out?

Pulled off board: are you strapless? I have done a little strapless but prefer foot hooks, especially toeside, can kind of "grab" a little better. Or if you are just losing balance, maybe need to lean into it more? I remember in learning stages leaning in and angling hard upwind, I'd be so twisted around that wipeouts were directly onto my back. Someone gave good advice: remember that you aren't edging the side of a board, you are angling a 3D wing set in the water, so you don't need to lean into it hard necessarily, you just need to get it to the right angle in the water. That seemed to help.

jamesperth
WA, 550 posts
12 Nov 2017 9:18PM
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Same as you do on a surfboard - first time will freak you out as you really need to lean out (face first) over the foil to point back upwind. The height makes it a bit scary. Not actually that hard once you commit however. You could try making large downwind S turns to get a feel for it, and work on upwind toeside once you get the hang on it. It will click in a session or two.

DukeSilver
WA, 266 posts
12 Nov 2017 10:28PM
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As James said, you have to commit once into the turn. Remember to keep your head / body forward all the way through the turn and down loop the kite from a high position and initiate the loop prior to or just after starting to turn. Just like on a surf board, let the kite pull you through the turn. This will keep your kite powered up as you get around to the toeside position, provided you keep the arc of your turn pretty tight. You want to minimise the time your board is travelling towards the kite.

It's better to be leaning too far forward while making the turn than too far back. The latter will often see you launching the foil and board out of the water and this can sometimes result in the foil tangled up in your lines - not good. Lean too far forward, and any crash will only hurt your ego.

If you've done any snowboarding before, I find going into the turn from heel to toeside similar to the feeling of leaning forward down the slope of the mountain while carving on a snowboard. It feels counterintuitive at first, but leaning back leads to bad things.

juandesooka
258 posts
13 Nov 2017 1:00AM
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Down looping may be required if on a small kite for the conditions, but if not, then looping isn't needed. Seems like that complicates this, adds one more thing to worry about while trying to learn the move. Helpful once this is dialed, keeping speed through the turn, though personally I rarely loop while foiling -- maybe I am on a slightly bigger kite.

airsail
QLD, 340 posts
13 Nov 2017 5:23AM
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Concentrate on turning the board tighter, and when learning try and keep the board on the surface. Turning tighter stops you cruising off downwind and loosing power in the kite and staying on the surface is much less scary. Plenty of time fo flying transitions later.

horey69
QLD, 275 posts
13 Nov 2017 6:08AM
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Thanks for the tips, @Dukesiler I have done a fair bit of snow boarding and yes I can relate to leaning more over the front. Funny I've been kiting for a decade and really only down loop one way and unfortunately it's the healside transition.
Plenty to try...lean more commit more down loop if possible.
Cheers Gents
Happy foiling

bigtone667
NSW, 1059 posts
13 Nov 2017 6:09AM
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horey69 said..
Any tips for getting around from heel side to toeside on a foil, either on the water or on the foil.
I can get round then lose power or get pulled off the board.



My thoughts...

Try and get your chest over your front knee. It will push your weight forward and flatten out board/foil. Once you are going you can push yourself away from the board to lean it over and get a better upwind angle.

If you downloop, turn your board first and allow the kite to follow with the bar out.

If you fly the kite over and then down, turn the kite first and allow the board to follow.

The trick is knowing how hard to turn the foil/board to keep the tension (and therefore power) in the lines. As soon as you foil starts following the kite at speed in a turn, you are effectively drifting the kite. It can be pretty easy to lose power at this point or worse, invert/crash your kite due to no line tension.

An alternative way to practice toeside is to do a downwind run. Start on your healside and gently gybe to toeside and the back again. Gets you used to on mast turns and healside/ toeside without the effort being too dramatic. Also gets you into the fun of a carving turn.

RAL INN
VIC, 2760 posts
13 Nov 2017 7:26AM
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This could help

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bigtone667
NSW, 1059 posts
13 Nov 2017 7:58AM
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Great video!!!

RAL INN
VIC, 2760 posts
13 Nov 2017 8:31AM
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bigtone667 said..
Great video!!!


It highlights your chest over knee tip.

Plummet
4543 posts
13 Nov 2017 4:59PM
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Maybe your over thinking it. Just carve around like you would doing a heel to toe carve. Don't be too over powered, Select a small kite then it will all go well. After that simply practice,

jamesperth
WA, 550 posts
14 Nov 2017 6:31PM
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It's just like that video and plummet say. Don't over think it, just commit to the turn and keep your weight on your front foot exactly like you would on a snowboard. You'll be amazed at how good it feels after a while and you can really start cranking them like a dirty big bottom turn.

Whether you loop or turn kite Kite over the top, or just leave it at 12 and deal with it later it really doesn't change the board carve.

Ive noticed with the foil you really have 2 separate things happening between board and Kite. For example I can loop the kite happily backwards while continuing to ride downwind and this helps put the Kite back further in the window. It doesn't affect the foil at all - learn to disconnect the 2 skills.

dafish
NSW, 1367 posts
14 Nov 2017 8:41PM
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jamesperth said..
It's just like that video and plummet say. Don't over think it, just commit to the turn and keep your weight on your front foot exactly like you would on a snowboard. You'll be amazed at how good it feels after a while and you can really start cranking them like a dirty big bottom turn.

Whether you loop or turn kite Kite over the top, or just leave it at 12 and deal with it later it really doesn't change the board carve.

Ive noticed with the foil you really have 2 separate things happening between board and Kite. For example I can loop the kite happily backwards while continuing to ride downwind and this helps put the Kite back further in the window. It doesn't affect the foil at all - learn to disconnect the 2 skills.


exactly! Its all about the glide and where you reengage the power. Going straight downwind you can loop both ways to keep the kite on one side instead of moving it across the window. Love that freedom. Going to make a little clip on strapless light wind water starts in the next few days and I will have a little example of just that kind of riding. I shot all the footage two days ago in 9 to 12 knots and hopefully I will have time to edit something soon.

horey69
QLD, 275 posts
16 Nov 2017 7:13PM
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Made it, cheers for the advice...more practice tomorrow

bigtone667
NSW, 1059 posts
16 Nov 2017 7:37PM
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horey69 said..
Made it, cheers for the advice...more practice tomorrow


Great to hear.

Youngbreezy
WA, 542 posts
17 Nov 2017 9:51AM
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This is exactly where I am up to with my foiling, heel to toe carving jybes and then getting going toeside, I have done this a thousand times on a surfboard and twin tip but on a foil it still just seems a little mind boggling.

I feel like I have been over thinking it. Next time I'm just gonna go for it and do it like I do on a surfboard but remember to keep my weight centered. A couple times I have lent out too far over the toeside edge and had the foil spring up at my face and try to kill me.

bigtone667
NSW, 1059 posts
17 Nov 2017 1:37PM
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Youngbreezy said..
This is exactly where I am up to with my foiling, heel to toe carving jybes and then getting going toeside, I have done this a thousand times on a surfboard and twin tip but on a foil it still just seems a little mind boggling.

I feel like I have been over thinking it. Next time I'm just gonna go for it and do it like I do on a surfboard but remember to keep my weight centered. A couple times I have lent out too far over the toeside edge and had the foil spring up at my face and try to kill me.


Just remember that your point of balance is no longer your feet, but a wing that is probably 500mm underwater.

Plummet
4543 posts
17 Nov 2017 5:28PM
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Was doing some toe to heal and back today. I think an up turn is probably easier to start with. Ride the foil lowish carve around and follow the kite. It really is similar to heal to toe carve on a tt or sb. Just relax into it. Lean and follow, keep a constant power with the kite and relax, Did I say relax?

Start off with down wind s turns not going fully hard upwind. Then crank more toeside upwind as you get confident.

dafish
NSW, 1367 posts
18 Nov 2017 7:13AM
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The scary part of learning the move is that when you mess up and go over the rail of the board the wing is coming right at you. Add a bit of chop to make the water unstable and it begins to do your mind in. Just like trying to pull a kite loop for the first time, you mind is working over time trying to decide how to do it or when to pull it. The move needs to be made at slow speed. First just begin going straight down wind until you catch your kite, then head back upwind again. Each time you do this turn a little more to toe side before turning back to heal side. Two or three times and you will have gone all the way to toe side. Two sessions of this and you will be carving around like it's no big deal.

horey69
QLD, 275 posts
18 Nov 2017 11:12AM
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Thanks Dafish, you are right, the thought of going over the rail and meeting with my hoverglide is not appealing. Hence giving the whole turn more thought than is actually needed. I've never failed anywhere where there isn't chop so I have to get used to it.
Now that I've made it round a couple of times its just practice and perseverance.

DukeSilver
WA, 266 posts
18 Nov 2017 9:48AM
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horey69 said..
Thanks Dafish, you are right, the thought of going over the rail and meeting with my hoverglide is not appealing. Hence giving the whole turn more thought than is actually needed. I've never failed anywhere where there isn't chop so I have to get used to it.
Now that I've made it round a couple of times its just practice and perseverance.


I've "Taco'ed" onto my Hoverglide a few times learning this transition. It's not that bad due to the turned down wing tips and I've never been hurt. Wouldn't want to do it on a flat, sharp race wig though.

horey69
QLD, 275 posts
18 Nov 2017 12:54PM
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Duke, we're you running a foot hook on the back when you were learning the transition?
I've noticed a brusie from the hook from tacoing. Still a small price to pay.

DukeSilver
WA, 266 posts
18 Nov 2017 12:45PM
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horey69 said..
Duke, we're you running a foot hook on the back when you were learning the transition?
I've noticed a brusie from the hook from tacoing. Still a small price to pay.


Hi mate. No, I've only ever foiled strapless. I'm considering putting on just a front strap for a while to see what that's like for when I want to go faster and feel a bit more locked in. It might be better for riding toe side as well.

I could see how you'd get bruising taco'ing with a foot hook though.

horey69
QLD, 275 posts
18 Nov 2017 2:55PM
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Yeah it was a bit annoying but I'm sure I'll have them sorted soon. Front strap, what about the mono strap. I made one up it's great not really locked in but enough to feel your in control


DukeSilver
WA, 266 posts
18 Nov 2017 2:04PM
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horey69 said..
Yeah it was a bit annoying but I'm sure I'll have them sorted soon. Front strap, what about the mono strap. I made one up it's great not really locked in but enough to feel your in control



Yes - I really like that set up. Might try it out now as I'm about to head out for a foil. Love the look of the new Dwarfcraft too.

Youngbreezy
WA, 542 posts
1 Dec 2017 1:58PM
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Today is the day !! I WILL make carving jybes and riding toeside today I am on a mission!!

I have been thinking as soon as I can nail these things I will get alot more enjoyment and functionality out of my foiling. Stopping and hopping off to change directions far out in light wind (yes I'm afraid of sharks) has been a bit of a buzzkill.

I am off to the beach now, i will let you all know how I go

warwickl
NSW, 1230 posts
1 Dec 2017 5:00PM
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Youngbreezy said..
Today is the day !! I WILL make carving jybes and riding toeside today I am on a mission!!

I have been thinking as soon as I can nail these things I will get alot more enjoyment and functionality out of my foiling. Stopping and hopping off to change directions far out in light wind (yes I'm afraid of sharks) has been a bit of a buzzkill.

I am off to the beach now, i will let you all know how I go


I feel like I wrote that. I fully understand, fortunately many have and are traveling this path with many succeeding, we may as well soon.

Youngbreezy
WA, 542 posts
1 Dec 2017 6:03PM
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Well I am claiming a success!

I managed a couple smooth on foil carving jybes going heel to toe I also got in a bit of toeside riding on the foil.

Retrospectively I think plummets advice of relax relax relax is really good advice. I started the session more relaxed and surprised myself by pulling off the jybes quite quickly, as the session went on and I got into some good solid smackdown I became progressively less relaxed and in turn suffered more smackdowns including a quite impressive backflip where I was riding toeside and flipped backwards catapulting the board over me, I could not have done that if I tried

I am certainly nowhere near the point of being able to transition smoothly and avoid spending too much time in the water way out the back but I feel like I made a big step forward today

Plummet
4543 posts
2 Dec 2017 12:25AM
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Awesome!.. Yeah, Relaxing into it and flowing with the foil has been the key for me. The foil Is all about flow. If you can do fluid relaxed movements things will fall into place. When you start trying to force the foil into place that's when the smack downs take place!

The other ditty of info that really helps me is that riding the foil low is more stable and less likely to cause a server smack down. So every time you need to learn a new skill. Learn it low. Then take it higher as you get better.

DukeSilver
WA, 266 posts
2 Dec 2017 8:02AM
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Youngbreezy said..
Today is the day !! I WILL make carving jybes and riding toeside today I am on a mission!!

I have been thinking as soon as I can nail these things I will get alot more enjoyment and functionality out of my foiling. Stopping and hopping off to change directions far out in light wind (yes I'm afraid of sharks) has been a bit of a buzzkill.

I am off to the beach now, i will let you all know how I go



Glad you had a breakthrough with the TS riding. It will get easier and easier now.

You are correct in that once you start linking up your transitions, foiling becomes a more enjoyable and practical form of kiting. I've only just got to the level where I'm making roughly 60 - 70 percent of my transitions. Prior to that, I was botching most attempts, so to compensate, I'd do longer runs to practice what I was already good at - going in a straight line. About a month ago I went to Lancelin and decided to do some foiling in a beautiful little spot that only offered a run of about 70m before shallow reef forced me to turn around. I was this session that saw me have a breakthrough with my heel to toe side turns. I spent a few hours doing these short runs where I was turning every 30 seconds, and pretty soon, I was linking up 4 to 5 turns in a row and I was learning the muscle memory for when to initiate the kite loop and and how to position myself through the turn.

So I would recommend having a session where you dedicate some of the time to doing short runs with lots of transition attempts. Experiment with the timing of when to send the kite. My error was starting to carve the board downwind too early and sending the kite too late. This put too much slack in the lines and made the kite slow to turn. I would come off the foil while waiting for the kite to come through the window, then I would get a power spike from the kite as it suddenly woke up with line tension, and I'd mostly get dragged off the board. Sending the kite a fraction earlier made all the difference. Being evenly powered throughout the turn meant I could stay on the foil and sail away to toe side comfortably.



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"Toeside on a foil..." started by horey69