Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

Small low volume foil board

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Created by horey69 3 months ago, 18 Jul 2019
airsail
QLD, 356 posts
4 Aug 2019 8:23PM
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Can I add that Carbonco uses closed cell foam, similar to divinycell as a core rather than polystyrene. It is very hard so gives excellent impact resistance.
Also being closed cell, if you puncture the skin, which is unlikely, no problem, the board won't take on water so your session isn't spoiled.

Livit
WA, 462 posts
5 Aug 2019 8:37PM
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airsail said..
Can I add that Carbonco uses closed cell foam, similar to divinycell as a core rather than polystyrene. It is very hard so gives excellent impact resistance.
Also being closed cell, if you puncture the skin, which is unlikely, no problem, the board won't take on water so your session isn't spoiled.


Is it closed cell PVC foam (divinycell-airex-corecell...) or XPS?

airsail
QLD, 356 posts
6 Aug 2019 5:56AM
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Livit said..


airsail said..
Can I add that Carbonco uses closed cell foam, similar to divinycell as a core rather than polystyrene. It is very hard so gives excellent impact resistance.
Also being closed cell, if you puncture the skin, which is unlikely, no problem, the board won't take on water so your session isn't spoiled.




Is it closed cell PVC foam (divinycell-airex-corecell...) or XPS?



Not XPS, it's closed cell PVC, the good stuff.
Although I don't currently ride a carbonco board, preferring to build my own, I do buy my foam blanks from them.

CJ2478
NSW, 373 posts
6 Aug 2019 7:56AM
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Select to expand quote
airsail said..

Livit said..



airsail said..
Can I add that Carbonco uses closed cell foam, similar to divinycell as a core rather than polystyrene. It is very hard so gives excellent impact resistance.
Also being closed cell, if you puncture the skin, which is unlikely, no problem, the board won't take on water so your session isn't spoiled.





Is it closed cell PVC foam (divinycell-airex-corecell...) or XPS?




Not XPS, it's closed cell PVC, the good stuff.
Although I don't currently ride a carbonco board, preferring to build my own, I do buy my foam blanks from them.


wait, where are you getting your blanks?

for any of the DIYers, i can recommend paulowniatimber.com.au/ if you want a thin short low volume foil board. get the paipo blank, copy shape from an online source if you lack creativity, print out and trace onto paulownia.

Cheaper and easier to work with than PVC foam. Lower density than plywood as flotation is an issue with a heavy aluminium/fibreglass foil attached. The literature says you shouldn't go too thin with EPS as it will fail from internal shear. Delam isues with XPS (unfortunate because it is so cheap at bunnings)..

Livit
WA, 462 posts
6 Aug 2019 7:40AM
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CJ2478 said..

airsail said..


Livit said..




airsail said..
Can I add that Carbonco uses closed cell foam, similar to divinycell as a core rather than polystyrene. It is very hard so gives excellent impact resistance.
Also being closed cell, if you puncture the skin, which is unlikely, no problem, the board won't take on water so your session isn't spoiled.






Is it closed cell PVC foam (divinycell-airex-corecell...) or XPS?





Not XPS, it's closed cell PVC, the good stuff.
Although I don't currently ride a carbonco board, preferring to build my own, I do buy my foam blanks from them.



wait, where are you getting your blanks?

for any of the DIYers, i can recommend paulowniatimber.com.au/ if you want a thin short low volume foil board. get the paipo blank, copy shape from an online source if you lack creativity, print out and trace onto paulownia.

Cheaper and easier to work with than PVC foam. Lower density than plywood as flotation is an issue with a heavy aluminium/fibreglass foil attached. The literature says you shouldn't go too thin with EPS as it will fail from internal shear. Delam isues with XPS (unfortunate because it is so cheap at bunnings)..



XPS delam is mostly the result of poor craftmanship and often comes down to not preparing the blank accordingly. I think it is actually a very good option for backyard builder as it has good compression resistance, it is closed cell, easy to hotwire... and as you mentioned, cheap and readily available.

I am yet to have one to delaminate since I started using XPS 4 years ago.

PVC is actually very easy to work with and can be easily thermoformed with household tools. You can make 4-5 pocket boards in 20mm out of a sheet that you'll pay $250 so price point is actually very good can considering that you won't need any other reinforcement for your foil box.

CJ2478
NSW, 373 posts
6 Aug 2019 1:15PM
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Livit said..

CJ2478 said..


airsail said..



Livit said..





airsail said..
Can I add that Carbonco uses closed cell foam, similar to divinycell as a core rather than polystyrene. It is very hard so gives excellent impact resistance.
Also being closed cell, if you puncture the skin, which is unlikely, no problem, the board won't take on water so your session isn't spoiled.







Is it closed cell PVC foam (divinycell-airex-corecell...) or XPS?






Not XPS, it's closed cell PVC, the good stuff.
Although I don't currently ride a carbonco board, preferring to build my own, I do buy my foam blanks from them.




wait, where are you getting your blanks?

for any of the DIYers, i can recommend paulowniatimber.com.au/ if you want a thin short low volume foil board. get the paipo blank, copy shape from an online source if you lack creativity, print out and trace onto paulownia.

Cheaper and easier to work with than PVC foam. Lower density than plywood as flotation is an issue with a heavy aluminium/fibreglass foil attached. The literature says you shouldn't go too thin with EPS as it will fail from internal shear. Delam isues with XPS (unfortunate because it is so cheap at bunnings)..




XPS delam is mostly the result of poor craftmanship and often comes down to not preparing the blank accordingly. I think it is actually a very good option for backyard builder as it has good compression resistance, it is closed cell, easy to hotwire... and as you mentioned, cheap and readily available.

I am yet to have one to delaminate since I started using XPS 4 years ago.

PVC is actually very easy to work with and can be easily thermoformed with household tools. You can make 4-5 pocket boards in 20mm out of a sheet that you'll pay $250 so price point is actually very good can considering that you won't need any other reinforcement for your foil box.


Doesn't get any more simple than a flat bit of wood with a bit of glass each side. No need for extra reinforcement in the core either, just a bit of extra glass around where the foil mounts. Wood is good.

Also xps isnt suitable for thin (<3/4") boards due to internal shear issues. need it thin to achieve low volume.

I have read alot about the preparation on xps foam and things about degassing it by heating it up, applying cheater coats, being careful about the texture of the blank, all things i cant be bothered to deal with and with some risk involved. Each to their own and that's great if it works for you but if it really is as good as you say, why isn't it more widely used?

Not sure where you're getting a full sheet of 20mm pvc foam from for $250 either, best I am able to find from my regular suppliers is a 15mm sheet for $429.. www.playwithcarbon.com/divinycell-h80-structural-foam-core-full-sheet-2440x1220mm/

natho6026961
WA, 41 posts
6 Aug 2019 12:11PM
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CJ2478 said..
for any of the DIYers, i can recommend paulowniatimber.com.au/ if you want a thin short low volume foil board. get the paipo blank, copy shape from an online source if you lack creativity, print out and trace onto paulownia.


Hey cj, I like your sustainable and economical board suggestion here.

Paulownia is pretty light. What does your foilboard weigh roughy, excluding strap? Also dimensions?

How do you go with no rocker? Is there a way to build in some nose rocker?

Livit
WA, 462 posts
6 Aug 2019 1:55PM
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CJ2478 said..

Livit said..

XPS delam is mostly the result of poor craftmanship and often comes down to not preparing the blank accordingly. I think it is actually a very good option for backyard builder as it has good compression resistance, it is closed cell, easy to hotwire... and as you mentioned, cheap and readily available.

I am yet to have one to delaminate since I started using XPS 4 years ago.

PVC is actually very easy to work with and can be easily thermoformed with household tools. You can make 4-5 pocket boards in 20mm out of a sheet that you'll pay $250 so price point is actually very good can considering that you won't need any other reinforcement for your foil box.



Doesn't get any more simple than a flat bit of wood with a bit of glass each side. No need for extra reinforcement in the core either, just a bit of extra glass around where the foil mounts. Wood is good.

Also xps isnt suitable for thin (<3/4") boards due to internal shear issues. need it thin to achieve low volume.

I have read alot about the preparation on xps foam and things about degassing it by heating it up, applying cheater coats, being careful about the texture of the blank, all things i cant be bothered to deal with and with some risk involved. Each to their own and that's great if it works for you but if it really is as good as you say, why isn't it more widely used?

Not sure where you're getting a full sheet of 20mm pvc foam from for $250 either, best I am able to find from my regular suppliers is a 15mm sheet for $429.. www.playwithcarbon.com/divinycell-h80-structural-foam-core-full-sheet-2440x1220mm/


Agree with you, wood is good. I wish I had access to paulownia but I don't.

I actually get my PVC for less than $250 but i do have access to wholesale price. Have a look at Trojan fiberglass. I don't use them but they have full sheets for less than $200.

I think XPS is brilliant for the backyard builder as it is easy to get and to be honest, the blank prep only consist in a rough surface scratch with a 100 grit sanding screen followed by the application of a thin layer of qcell mixed in epoxy. Easily done and accessible to anyone.

XPS may not be as popular as EPS but it is actually used a fair bit. Back in the days, the s core from Salomon was made out of it. Appletree in the Netherlands are using it as well.

For thin boards I use PVC as it can be thermoformed and therefore there is only little wastage.

CJ2478
NSW, 373 posts
7 Aug 2019 8:06AM
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natho6026961 said..

CJ2478 said..
for any of the DIYers, i can recommend paulowniatimber.com.au/ if you want a thin short low volume foil board. get the paipo blank, copy shape from an online source if you lack creativity, print out and trace onto paulownia.



Hey cj, I like your sustainable and economical board suggestion here.

Paulownia is pretty light. What does your foilboard weigh roughy, excluding strap? Also dimensions?

How do you go with no rocker? Is there a way to build in some nose rocker?


Hi Natho,

Ill see if i can get some pics, but to answer your questions, I have no idea what it weighs, at a guess i would say around 2kg but its probably over reinforced as it has 2oz glass, 3oz double bias glass each side and then 100mm wide UD carbon strips each side (two on the top), plus extra glass around foil attachment point.

Dimensions are 1180mm x 460mm. Its kind of a skimboard shape with wide square tail about 200mm wide.

For the spot where the foil bolts on befgore i glassed it i drilled some 20mm dia holes and filled with resin and glass and then glassed the whole thing so that the wood is not exposed to water in those holes.

No rocker is not an issue if you're a proficient foiler. Like anything you get used to it and it forces you to improve and reduce the number of touchdowns. This is something i was a little concerned about but have found its not an issue whatsoever.

There are ways you could add rocker by laminating 2 or more sheets using a mold or kerfing in some rock but further to my point above i do not believe it is necessary and this would increase to the cost, time and complexity.

emmafoils
81 posts
7 Aug 2019 8:17AM
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Select to expand quote
CJ2478 said..

natho6026961 said..


CJ2478 said..
for any of the DIYers, i can recommend paulowniatimber.com.au/ if you want a thin short low volume foil board. get the paipo blank, copy shape from an online source if you lack creativity, print out and trace onto paulownia.




Hey cj, I like your sustainable and economical board suggestion here.

Paulownia is pretty light. What does your foilboard weigh roughy, excluding strap? Also dimensions?

How do you go with no rocker? Is there a way to build in some nose rocker?



Hi Natho,

Ill see if i can get some pics, but to answer your questions, I have no idea what it weighs, at a guess i would say around 2kg but its probably over reinforced as it has 2oz glass, 3oz double bias glass each side and then 100mm wide UD carbon strips each side (two on the top), plus extra glass around foil attachment point.

Dimensions are 1180mm x 460mm. Its kind of a skimboard shape with wide square tail about 200mm wide.

For the spot where the foil bolts on befgore i glassed it i drilled some 20mm dia holes and filled with resin and glass and then glassed the whole thing so that the wood is not exposed to water in those holes.

No rocker is not an issue if you're a proficient foiler. Like anything you get used to it and it forces you to improve and reduce the number of touchdowns. This is something i was a little concerned about but have found its not an issue whatsoever.

There are ways you could add rocker by laminating 2 or more sheets using a mold or kerfing in some rock but further to my point above i do not believe it is necessary and this would increase to the cost, time and complexity.


Strongly disagree with no rocker statement. Small boards with adequate rocker like Groove, Kanaha and Ketos are simply better foilboards. Watch videos of world class foilers and you'll see how much they utilize front rockers. Need for rocker has nothing to do with a skill deficit. It is what a proper foil board should have.

CJ2478
NSW, 373 posts
7 Aug 2019 10:53AM
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emmafoils said..

CJ2478 said..


natho6026961 said..



CJ2478 said..
for any of the DIYers, i can recommend paulowniatimber.com.au/ if you want a thin short low volume foil board. get the paipo blank, copy shape from an online source if you lack creativity, print out and trace onto paulownia.





Hey cj, I like your sustainable and economical board suggestion here.

Paulownia is pretty light. What does your foilboard weigh roughy, excluding strap? Also dimensions?

How do you go with no rocker? Is there a way to build in some nose rocker?




Hi Natho,

Ill see if i can get some pics, but to answer your questions, I have no idea what it weighs, at a guess i would say around 2kg but its probably over reinforced as it has 2oz glass, 3oz double bias glass each side and then 100mm wide UD carbon strips each side (two on the top), plus extra glass around foil attachment point.

Dimensions are 1180mm x 460mm. Its kind of a skimboard shape with wide square tail about 200mm wide.

For the spot where the foil bolts on befgore i glassed it i drilled some 20mm dia holes and filled with resin and glass and then glassed the whole thing so that the wood is not exposed to water in those holes.

No rocker is not an issue if you're a proficient foiler. Like anything you get used to it and it forces you to improve and reduce the number of touchdowns. This is something i was a little concerned about but have found its not an issue whatsoever.

There are ways you could add rocker by laminating 2 or more sheets using a mold or kerfing in some rock but further to my point above i do not believe it is necessary and this would increase to the cost, time and complexity.



Strongly disagree with no rocker statement. Small boards with adequate rocker like Groove, Kanaha and Ketos are simply better foilboards. Watch videos of world class foilers and you'll see how much they utilize front rockers. Need for rocker has nothing to do with a skill deficit. It is what a proper foil board should have.


Each to their own I guess. Yes they are better boards but only if you're touching down. I find a bit of back foot pressure gets me through the occasional touchdown and if its a high speed touchdown coming down the face of the wave i prefer that the board nosedives and doesn't run me over in a wipeout.

Not sure what you mean by the world class foilers using rocker either - they are riding the foil, not the board. The only benefit that i can see (if you're not touching down) is that the very slight rocker allows you to 'lock in' the front foot (if no strap or foot hook). Maybe if you're boosting then rocker would help for landings, but I dont see many people boosting on these small pocket boards.

There are no rules what does and does not constitute a 'proper' foil board. I'm out riding without issues in the pacific ocean (ie big chop, with waves) on my home made plank that cost a fraction of the commercially available options. There are a bunch of guys riding skim board with foils on them too at my local which have negligible rocker also without issues.

If you're buying a board then by all means go for rocker but if a home builder then not worth worrying about IMO.

natho6026961
WA, 41 posts
7 Aug 2019 1:25PM
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Thanks for the info CJ. I'd be interested to see some pics. So you used a single sheet of 16mm? What's the weight of your foil (does it float ok)?

Bit of discussion on Kiteforum and different ideas how to build a foilboard with Paulownia, but they tended to use multiple layers. The simplicity of a single plank sounds good to me (as a non board builder), but there were some concerns regarding the softness/stiffness of the wood requiring layers and reinforcement. Sounds like you have it covered.

Re rocker, my current SS DC 4'6" has a decent amount over the front third. I don't touch down too often especially with the bigger wing I just got, but if I nose dive I usually fall off anyways. I can see rocker being especially useful when learning new moves e.g. tacks. If I want an awesome board I'll be buying it for sure

natho6026961
WA, 41 posts
7 Aug 2019 3:10PM
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emmafoils said..
Strongly disagree with no rocker statement. Small boards with adequate rocker like Groove, Kanaha and Ketos are simply better foilboards. Watch videos of world class foilers and you'll see how much they utilize front rockers. Need for rocker has nothing to do with a skill deficit. It is what a proper foil board should have.


Out of interest, for you, what is adequate rocker on a 1m board?

CJ2478
NSW, 373 posts
7 Aug 2019 5:35PM
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CJ2478
NSW, 373 posts
7 Aug 2019 5:41PM
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Yes single 16mm 1200 x 470mm sheet of paulownia. Thing feels solid and I can never feel it flexing at 75kg. Can pump on the foil through lulls and don't feel it flex then either. Going to build a shorter one soon I think that will also be flat

airsail
QLD, 356 posts
7 Aug 2019 7:53PM
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Select to expand quote
natho6026961 said..


emmafoils said..
Strongly disagree with no rocker statement. Small boards with adequate rocker like Groove, Kanaha and Ketos are simply better foilboards. Watch videos of world class foilers and you'll see how much they utilize front rockers. Need for rocker has nothing to do with a skill deficit. It is what a proper foil board should have.




Out of interest, for you, what is adequate rocker on a 1m board?




This is based on the Groove Skate 120, brilliant to ride, haven't been able to nose dive it yet, not even when trying, just bounces off the water. Boards with plenty of rocker are the future for freeride.

emmafoils
81 posts
7 Aug 2019 7:17PM
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Rocker is not just about touchdowns, though it helps. It also makes a huge difference in underpowered water starts, landing jumps, in waves when you are riding leaned hard to get back upwind, etc. A couple of years ago, the thought was that the board didn't matter once on foil but with experience we now know it matters a lot. A state of the art foilboard must be light, stiff and have generous front rocker. Don't settle for less. I cringe when I see pictures of flat foil boards.

Livit
WA, 462 posts
7 Aug 2019 9:14PM
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emmafoils said..
Rocker is not just about touchdowns, though it helps. It also makes a huge difference in underpowered water starts, landing jumps, in waves when you are riding leaned hard to get back upwind, etc. A couple of years ago, the thought was that the board didn't matter once on foil but with experience we now know it matters a lot. A state of the art foilboard must be light, stiff and have generous front rocker. Don't settle for less. I cringe when I see pictures of flat foil boards.


As a seasoned freerider, I am also in favor of boards with rocker however I am definitely not buying into the Kanaha hype though...For knowing a bit about shaping and materials, what make me cringe is the price tag associated to a 90cm board made with $150 worth of materials. Lightness is super easy to achieve when you make the decision to sell boards without strap inserts. Good on him for tapping into the hipster community and making a killing though. That guy and the BRM dude are the Steve Jobs of foiling

CJ2478
NSW, 373 posts
8 Aug 2019 8:59AM
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emmafoils said..
Rocker is not just about touchdowns, though it helps. It also makes a huge difference in underpowered water starts, landing jumps, in waves when you are riding leaned hard to get back upwind, etc. A couple of years ago, the thought was that the board didn't matter once on foil but with experience we now know it matters a lot. A state of the art foilboard must be light, stiff and have generous front rocker. Don't settle for less. I cringe when I see pictures of flat foil boards.


You seem to be the authority on foiling so who am I to argue with you, however I can however confirm that the flat board works fine for underpowered waterstarts and I know this because my sessions are over when the kite is falling out of the sky, not because I cant go upwind or successfully waterstart. From surfing we know that rocker has an adverse effect on early planing and with a bit of back foot pressure you can engage the foil to do the work for you. Same goes with riding in the surf, never had issues leaning hard against the foil to go upwind and no problems getting over whitewash up to about knee high. The only area I cant vouch for the performance is doing airs, which I leave for when I am riding my surfboard.

In reference to what Livit said above, it makes me cringe to see people dropping loads of cash on 'state of the art' foil boards. While rocker can be advantageous it certainly isn't a necessity and the lack of it is not a SIGNIFICANT barrier to performance which cannot be overcome.

emmafoils
81 posts
8 Aug 2019 2:58PM
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You know you are winning an argument when the snarky ad hominem comments start.

Just because someone can ride a flat board, it doesn't mean that is the best shape for a foil board. Yes, it can be done.....but that is not the important question.

It is relatively easy to build a mostly flat board and call it a foil board and try to sell it to an unsuspecting buyer as a good foil board.

Don't buy a small foil board that doesn't have lots of obvious front rocker. If the seller tells you "it isn't necessary", he is really saying "getting the shape right is very difficult and time consuming so just buy what I have".

There are are no disadvantages to front rocker and plenty of obvious advantages. The waterline argument is specious.

I guess there is one disadvantage: getting adequate front rocker just right is very difficult to do.

Buyer beware.

Pilz
WA, 25 posts
8 Aug 2019 6:40PM
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Haha, good to see how many people are experts..
I reckon go out foiling try new things and make your own mind up..

Livit
WA, 462 posts
8 Aug 2019 7:08PM
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emmafoils said..


Don't buy a small foil board that doesn't have lots of obvious front rocker. If the seller tells you "it isn't necessary", he is really saying "getting the shape right is very difficult and time consuming so just buy what I have".

There are are no disadvantages to front rocker and plenty of obvious advantages. The waterline argument is specious.

I guess there is one disadvantage: getting adequate front rocker just right is very difficult to do.

Buyer beware.



What a pathetic analysis!!Kanaha-Groove-Ketos have totally different approach to build and shape so who's got it "right"?

The truth is that we are riding the foil not the board... The board has its importance but the parameter will vary whether you are a racer, a freerider throwing big jumps, a wave rider or even maybe a freestyler.

The goal is to get rid of unnecessary swing weight but once again, different riding style or water conditions, different parameters.

With respect to rocker line, what seems perfect to you may not be everyone else's cup of tea. Just accept it.

Maybe if I had spent $1200 + in a nugget that has no warranty on it, I would probably feel that I need tell the world how much easier my water starts are now that I have it

I think that the guy from the Carbon co is on the money with the material used and the pricepoint. Same with Pilz. At least he sent pics of himself throwing some pretty impressive stuffs so it shows that his designs which are totally different from the other 3 mentioned above are also working well.

thecarbonco
QLD, 9 posts
8 Aug 2019 11:11PM
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Rocker comparison. The one on the right is a Nang 100. Same rocker / manufacturing process the as KBGhost and Horey69 rigs.
These boards are apparently too flat..... does that mean the kanaha rocker is no good?

All the gear on here looks super fun to ride. That is why we are on little boards.
If you are on a little board you will be able to make anything work. Im having just as much fun on the standard rocker i am doing now vs the earlier flatter boards that i made. Its all good.

Best way to make informed opinions about these different board characteristics is to try some of this gear out.


This video feels relevant.





emmafoils
81 posts
9 Aug 2019 1:06AM
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People getting a bit worked up so I will calmly leave this topic. Hopefully my comments have prevented a person or two from buying silly flat foil boards being pimped.

horey69
QLD, 290 posts
9 Aug 2019 7:42AM
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Love that vid

Swavek
WA, 318 posts
9 Aug 2019 2:13PM
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Having rocker is a good thing and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

DIY builders who built their boards flat (because someone told them it doesn't matter or matters very little) will regret their time/money/effort as soon as they try another board with a decent rocker.

How much rocker and exact shape of it? I am yet to try different boards to form an opinion. Note that the opinion of beginners who touch down and fall a lot is more relevant than those who mastered the foil already and hardly ever fall . To masters of foil the rocker matters less.

airsail
QLD, 356 posts
9 Aug 2019 5:54PM
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Just back from a session on my groove skate copy. Carved around off some chop, down the face and the board touched the surface, no probs, just scooped back up and kept going. No chance a flat board would do that.

Kamikuza
QLD, 4429 posts
9 Aug 2019 6:13PM
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airsail said..
Just back from a session on my groove skate copy. Carved around off some chop, down the face and the board touched the surface, no probs, just scooped back up and kept going. No chance a flat board would do that.


How do you know? Have you done it with a flat board?

airsail
QLD, 356 posts
9 Aug 2019 7:41PM
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Kamikuza said..

airsail said..
Just back from a session on my groove skate copy. Carved around off some chop, down the face and the board touched the surface, no probs, just scooped back up and kept going. No chance a flat board would do that.



How do you know? Have you done it with a flat board?


Yep, rode lots of different boards, short flatter rocker boards just plow in. Flat boards are probably fine flat water but when you get out in larger chop with lots of water movement they just don't cut it. Usable but not enjoyable and you need to compromise to avoid pearling.

dafish
NSW, 1390 posts
10 Aug 2019 4:43PM
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Is rocker better? Yes, as mentioned. I have shaped a few palownia pocket boards and the first had no rocker. Learning smooth transitions was hard without rocker. I got it after a while and the switching of feet became precise. That said, my next two had rocker and the boards were much more fun to ride. If I had my choice, rocker is a no brainer. I think having a flat deck is more important than the amount of rocker. Even the a little amount of rocker is fine, (25mm) but for me a flat deck is what translates better to the the wing. If you want to shape your own plank, go for it. You will enjoy the process. But if you can take the time, put rocker into it like some of these beautiful home builds that have been on these threads. It will make the transition learning curve easier.



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"Small low volume foil board" started by horey69