Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

Just wondering, does a bigger rear wing make things more stable?

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Created by Puetz 1 month ago, 17 Jul 2019
Puetz
NT, 2127 posts
17 Jul 2019 8:06AM
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G'day all,

Newbie dumb-ar5e question again, but does a bigger rear wing make things more stable, is there any benefits to having a bigger rear wing or indeed a smaller rear wing?

I can work out logically it will help stabilise things at times but is there a cross over point where too big is too big or is it all in the front wing size? Is there a ratio between the front wing size and rear wing for certain performance gains? Can a bigger rear wing help learning but of course you will loose playfulness?

Just wondering is all, got any experience playing with different sizing, I'd like your opinions.

cheers,

Robbie

AquaPlow
QLD, 733 posts
17 Jul 2019 9:18AM
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Just to throw this into the mix!!
www.seabreeze.com.au/News/Kitesurfing/How-does-this-backwards-kite-foil-work_12145328.aspx
There are foilers who abandon the stabiliser altogether!! No FOMO on that front from me!!
Be interested in the replies on this.
Cheers
AP

bigtone667
NSW, 1047 posts
17 Jul 2019 12:24PM
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A bigger rear wing will make the hydrofoil slower and less maneuverable but more stable.

Also a cheap way to get a variation in performance.

Puetz
NT, 2127 posts
17 Jul 2019 12:08PM
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... I had the unpleasant pleasure of breaking my mates Speedster fuselage where it snapped right at the end, where the rear wing attached to the fuselage so of course the damn thing bucked like a wild bronco and I ate sh!t, but after having a try again for sh!ts and giggles, just to see if I could foil without the rear wing, I kinda managed it, albeit wobbly. Wasn't that much fun but it got me thinking about the relationship between wing sizes and can anything be gained, like maybe a bigger one can help if your practising a new move?

Puetz
NT, 2127 posts
17 Jul 2019 12:12PM
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bigtone667 said..
A bigger rear wing will make the hydrofoil slower and less maneuverable but more stable.

Also a cheap way to get a variation in performance.


... is that more stable pitch wise??

Kamikuza
QLD, 4082 posts
17 Jul 2019 12:43PM
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Same as it is for any other wing: bigger = more lift and drag.

Possibly you won't notice for a while, I imagine the small difference will matter when you're good enough to feel it.

IMHO you'll have results while learning by paying attention to things like relaxed knees, staying loose and letting the board move under you, getting your feet in the right place...

In other words, shut up and ride nothing better then time on the water...!

Kamikuza
QLD, 4082 posts
17 Jul 2019 12:48PM
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Select to expand quote
Puetz said..

bigtone667 said..
A bigger rear wing will make the hydrofoil slower and less maneuverable but more stable.

Also a cheap way to get a variation in performance.



... is that more stable pitch wise??



Yes, and probably yaw to a lesser degree, and roll depending on span.

Have a spare fuse, tempted to try mono foil too.

I broke a 3D printed stab prototype too -- lost half the wing on one side and while it was noticeably it was only just... Wasn't certain until I actually looked.

LeighMajor
NSW, 302 posts
17 Jul 2019 3:08PM
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So in regards to rear wing concave up or down.
Can be either way on some rear foils.As Slingshot
Pros & cons?
In other words same as front foil concave down or the opposite to the front.

Puetz
NT, 2127 posts
17 Jul 2019 3:10PM
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Kamikuza said..
Same as it is for any other wing: bigger = more lift and drag.

Possibly you won't notice for a while, I imagine the small difference will matter when you're good enough to feel it.

IMHO you'll have results while learning by paying attention to things like relaxed knees, staying loose and letting the board move under you, getting your feet in the right place...

In other words, shut up and ride nothing better then time on the water...!


... haha yeah I'd definitely love to ride more and talk less, don't we all.

But in the mean time and between drinks,,,,,, have you tried different sized rear wings (with the same size front wing of course) and what did you find,,,, better or worse, any benefits? I guess I feel relaxed enough now on foils to wonder about the nuances now, especially seeing as a lot of the brands are offering different sized wings.

Robbie


dafish
NSW, 1361 posts
17 Jul 2019 4:29PM
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And then there is the Canard design, bigger rear wing than the front, and both wings having lift. You don't see too many around but I have found the Spitfire with the xlw wings have worked really well in the surf, can go super slow, and can outrace all the bigger surf wings. It takes a few hours to get used to compared to standard foils, but after that I have been able to jump back and forth when I try other peoples foils. I am often asked to ride foils that people are learning on because they are struggling and they want to know if it's them or the foil. (It's almost always them).... Saying that, there are so many good foils on the market these days, great to see how much has gone into it in the last three years.

eppo
WA, 7150 posts
17 Jul 2019 8:16PM
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Robbie you pretty much summed it up in your first post. More stable the bigger the rear wing but less nimble from what I can gather. I know a lot of prone surfers are getting shorter and shorter fuselages and smaller back wings ... so extrapolate that as you will. Agree with kami though. Grab the "standard" size back wing that goes with whatever front wing you've chosen and ride. Then experiment as I know you will ...and sooner than later will know more than most about what's going on ...

apart from causehecan of course that guy seems to know everything about anything it seems

Kamikuza
QLD, 4082 posts
17 Jul 2019 11:11PM
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Puetz said..

Kamikuza said..
Same as it is for any other wing: bigger = more lift and drag.

Possibly you won't notice for a while, I imagine the small difference will matter when you're good enough to feel it.

IMHO you'll have results while learning by paying attention to things like relaxed knees, staying loose and letting the board move under you, getting your feet in the right place...

In other words, shut up and ride nothing better then time on the water...!



... haha yeah I'd definitely love to ride more and talk less, don't we all.

But in the mean time and between drinks,,,,,, have you tried different sized rear wings (with the same size front wing of course) and what did you find,,,, better or worse, any benefits? I guess I feel relaxed enough now on foils to wonder about the nuances now, especially seeing as a lot of the brands are offering different sized wings.

Robbie




Not on the current foil, but on my first I had a fuse with two positions. Longest position was more stable pitch/yaw -- less reactive to handling and inputs. I assume that smaller wings would have the same effect as moving the stab forward ie. more reactive, needs more fine input control.

How much, is the question...!

Puetz
NT, 2127 posts
19 Jul 2019 10:35AM
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Select to expand quote
Kamikuza said..

Puetz said..


Kamikuza said..
Same as it is for any other wing: bigger = more lift and drag.

Possibly you won't notice for a while, I imagine the small difference will matter when you're good enough to feel it.

IMHO you'll have results while learning by paying attention to things like relaxed knees, staying loose and letting the board move under you, getting your feet in the right place...

In other words, shut up and ride nothing better then time on the water...!




... haha yeah I'd definitely love to ride more and talk less, don't we all.

But in the mean time and between drinks,,,,,, have you tried different sized rear wings (with the same size front wing of course) and what did you find,,,, better or worse, any benefits? I guess I feel relaxed enough now on foils to wonder about the nuances now, especially seeing as a lot of the brands are offering different sized wings.

Robbie





Not on the current foil, but on my first I had a fuse with two positions. Longest position was more stable pitch/yaw -- less reactive to handling and inputs. I assume that smaller wings would have the same effect as moving the stab forward ie. more reactive, needs more fine input control.

How much, is the question...!


... I experimented with the rear wing AOA with the factory adjustments wedge thing they give you in the packet. It was an eye opener, for me, to feel such a big difference for what looks like a tiny adjustment, a mere 0.5 degree. The called it minus 0.5 degrees which I believe tilts the rear wing up at the front of the rear wing. Makes me realise how highly tuned these things are to feel like the whole thing is different. Not sure if I like it just yet, made riding more technical but it also allowed for higher peak speeds too.

Bit of fun finding out.

Robbie





Puetz
NT, 2127 posts
19 Jul 2019 10:36AM
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eppo said..
..... Then experiment as I know you will ...and sooner than later will know more than most about what's going on ...




... haha, I think you know me well,,,, experiments have started,,,,,,,,,,



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"Just wondering, does a bigger rear wing make things more stable?" started by Puetz