Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

Cheap Chineese Carbon Foil

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Created by cbulota > 9 months ago, 4 Aug 2017
snalberski
WA, 739 posts
27 Sep 2017 8:59AM
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I wonder if you could take a jigsaw and file to it to reshape it when you want a faster foil....

jamesperth
WA, 590 posts
27 Sep 2017 9:44AM
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cbulota said..

swoosh said..
You can call it a cheap chinese foils, but in reality, its likely no cheaper than what the big manufacturers are paying for their foils from the chinese factory. So are they cheap, or are the other foils overpriced?







Well said, although remember these are direct copies which means all the hard work has already been done and paid for by someone else. Other foils seem overpriced because people involved between the factory and the customers i.e. distributors and shops have to make profit before it comes to you. I also wonder what kind of warranty you would have on those if you had a defect ? James ?

Back to the review about the foil we tried with James 2 days ago. I can vouch for the build quality, it looks and feels just as strong as any other big brand name foil I've tried.

Due to the front wing being so large and wide you can foil at extremely LOW speeds (10km/h or 5-6 knots of forward speed i.e. not the wind speed but the speed you are moving at). The foil I'm used to riding for the last 3 years has a quite large front wing as well but requires double that speed (20km/h) before lifting off. By comparison, a race foil would need somewhere between 25 and 30km-h of speed before lifting off.

The foil is also very stable and incredibly easy to ride. All this makes it the SAFEST and most Progressive foil I've ever tried. For this reason we plan to use it in our foiling lessons for complete beginners.

The downside is that it's actually hard to ride with the board touching the surface of the water (i.e. without the foil lifting off), since any forward speed above 10km/h makes the foil rise up instantly. When you are learning it's important that you go through the stage of riding the board flat without the foil lifting off. It's a massive difference from any other foil I tried, you have to be very gentle with the kite and water start with as little power as possible, i.e. you will have to make some BIG adaptations from your usual water starts if you are learning to foil from scratch with this particular foil.

The other downside is that it's obviously very slow. The easiest way I can describe it is like driving with the handbrake on. I think it would be nearly impossible to go any faster than 30km/h on this foil. So even though it's an excellent beginner foil I think you can outgrow it quickly and might soon want something faster.

Christian


Good review from Christian.

I have had a few more sessions on it than he has and I can ride this happily on the surface , it is all to do with how you set the mast up. Set of for normal riding its requires minimal effort to fly, so if you want to ride it flat you just need to keep your weight forward with a narrow stance. If you wanted to make it really hard to fly, you would just move the footstraps further forward - ie all of these characteristic can be tuned in our out depending on how you want to ride. I am recommending the mast plate be set 380-400 mm behind the front footstraps straps as "neutral" or a normal position (380 - 400mm between the narrowest bolts to be accurate - front plate bolt, rear strap screw). This will ensure even weight on both feet and very easy foiling trim. (Mast forward = more list & more pressure front foot, mast back = less lift & pressure).

re outgrowing it - this is totally subjective and depends on what the rider wants from his/her equipment. I "outgrew" the $3,000 MKA Mako and Levttaz Aspect kite foils - does this mean i mastered them ? No of course not, it means my riding developed in a different direction and I needed a slower foil to continue to progress further. So i have gone from slow learner to fast and back again with my own journey.

I think its not accurate to assume everyone wants to go faster and that is the only direction one can progress in. Faster is not necessarily better - I know 2 people personally who have sustained severe foot injuries requiring surgery and 6 months off the water due to crashing foils at high speeds with feet caught in footstraps. Its called a Lisfranc Injury (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisfranc_injury) and is quite common as it turns out. Having said that, I hope no one buying this foil is under the impression it is the same as 1) a kite specific hydrofoil or 2) fast enough to go racing on. They will be disappointed.

For reference my average session stats on the Surf Foil is ~6 knots (~12 kmh) with a max of 12 knots (22kmh). As Chris pointed out, a race foil typically foils around 6 knots minimum, goes upwind at 18-22 knots (33-40 kmh) and downwind at 40+ knots in the right hands (75 kmh - Nico Parlier).

Remember this is a SUP / SURF foil. Its designed as a highly versatile foil than can be surfed prone as well as kited and everything in between.

jamesperth
WA, 590 posts
27 Sep 2017 9:45AM
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snalberski said..
I wonder if you could take a jigsaw and file to it to reshape it when you want a faster foil....


See previous comments. Not everyone wants a faster foil. I have outgrown my fast foils and now sold them in order to go slow.

wdric
NSW, 1625 posts
27 Sep 2017 9:03PM
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cbulota said..



all the hard work has already been done and paid for by someone else.

Christian

Yah I image the original designers heart would sink if they read forums like this
As would everyone else on here if their family and future was dependant on the earnings from the hardwork one puts into designing stuff

jamesperth
WA, 590 posts
28 Sep 2017 11:45AM
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I thought the same thing initially, but a massive long thread on KF kind of changed my mind. This is basically how the free market works and is inevitable.

A few years ago Chinese carbon fiber bicycle frames became widely available online - my cycling mates call them "Chinarellos" - and there was this massive fuss about how they would destroy the bicycle industry. Fast forward 2-3 years and you might see the odd guy riding one - usually the guy who wanted to build up his own bike in the first place), but most people can't be bothered to do the digging around finding the supplier, making payment via Western Union, dealing with customs and import duties themselves and ultimately not having a shop/Brand to go to when they break it. A massive fuss over nothing as it turns out.

My thoughts are that cheaper Chinese foils may entice a more kiters to give foiling a crack , and result in a net increase of second hand equipment foils available to others. This is a good thing. Today, a kiter wanting a new hydrofoil is require to spend $1500 - $2,000k on a piece of kit that requires 10-50 hours of time (success not guaranteed) to be able to used at a basic level. Its a massive committment in time and money for families like me. But, give the masses an "affordable" foil and you multiple that pool of potential foilersx 10, many of whom will upgrade to a higher end product over time. I suggest this greater population might even result in net increase in sales for the Big Brands if you take a 5 year view.

In conclusion, does a Chinese entry level aluminium foil take business away from Liquid Force, Fone, Naish, Levitaz, Banga, Enata or Mikes Lab ? I doubt it in the long run, I reckon it just create more customers for them.

sometimes increasing Supply = increased Demand.

DukeSilver
WA, 312 posts
28 Sep 2017 8:50PM
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jamesperth said..
I thought the same thing initially, but a massive long thread on KF kind of changed my mind. This is basically how the free market works and is inevitable.

A few years ago Chinese carbon fiber bicycle frames became widely available online - my cycling mates call them "Chinarellos" - and there was this massive fuss about how they would destroy the bicycle industry. Fast forward 2-3 years and you might see the odd guy riding one - usually the guy who wanted to build up his own bike in the first place), but most people can't be bothered to do the digging around finding the supplier, making payment via Western Union, dealing with customs and import duties themselves and ultimately not having a shop/Brand to go to when they break it. A massive fuss over nothing as it turns out.

My thoughts are that cheaper Chinese foils may entice a more kiters to give foiling a crack , and result in a net increase of second hand equipment foils available to others. This is a good thing. Today, a kiter wanting a new hydrofoil is require to spend $1500 - $2,000k on a piece of kit that requires 10-50 hours of time (success not guaranteed) to be able to used at a basic level. Its a massive committment in time and money for families like me. But, give the masses an "affordable" foil and you multiple that pool of potential foilersx 10, many of whom will upgrade to a higher end product over time. I suggest this greater population might even result in net increase in sales for the Big Brands if you take a 5 year view.

In conclusion, does a Chinese entry level aluminium foil take business away from Liquid Force, Fone, Naish, Levitaz, Banga, Enata or Mikes Lab ? I doubt it in the long run, I reckon it just create more customers for them.

sometimes increasing Supply = increased Demand.


Very well said. Bottom line is that foils are WAY overpriced for what they are and this is a major reason why more kiters don't get into this aspect of the sport.

nester
1 posts
29 Sep 2017 2:11AM
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I could not find this on Alibaba. Could you please share the link?

Thank you.

Nester

Pilz
WA, 45 posts
29 Sep 2017 7:58PM
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Not so sure about the overpriced, try and build one yourself the carbon fibre itself is pretty expensive and don't underestimate the labour required to make moulds etc..

DukeSilver
WA, 312 posts
29 Sep 2017 8:29PM
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Muller said..
Not so sure about the overpriced, try and build one yourself the carbon fibre itself is pretty expensive and don't underestimate the labour required to make moulds etc..


Sure, but I don't have a purpose built factory and the moulds that can pump them out lickity split. And we're talking about alloy foils not full carbon. You can buy a functioning second hand car or a nice television for $2,000.

dachopper
WA, 1505 posts
30 Sep 2017 3:38AM
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Muller said..
Not so sure about the overpriced, try and build one yourself the carbon fibre itself is pretty expensive and don't underestimate the labour required to make moulds etc..


Depends how you go about making it.

You can buy a meter of 12mm thick carbon for under 500US.

That's probably close to 2 complete foils worth.

steve_worm
NSW, 23 posts
21 Dec 2017 8:05AM
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NathanG said..
Yep, I'm in.

thanks James


Did u/anyone end up getting one of these?

I've a SUP being converted over Xmas and not sure which way I'm going to go.

Like the price point of the slingshot.
Naish thrust has solid reviews....

oldbones
QLD, 114 posts
21 Dec 2017 9:41AM
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dachopper said..

Muller said..
Not so sure about the overpriced, try and build one yourself the carbon fibre itself is pretty expensive and don't underestimate the labour required to make moulds etc..



Depends how you go about making it.

You can buy a meter of 12mm thick carbon for under 500US.

That's probably close to 2 complete foils worth.


Then pop it in your $100000.00 cnc machine to shape it?

pearl
NSW, 981 posts
22 Dec 2017 11:12AM
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jamesperth said..
It's 5.9kg fully assembled







I need to find out if these tuttle adaptors are available...






Is this a cheap version of the cheap version or same ?? Mast looks to mount more forward.
https://m.ebay.com.au/itm/Hydrofoil-for-Surfboards-and-Sups-Carbon-Fibre-Aluminium-Foil/222730026780?hash=item33dbbe7f1c:g:3RQAAOSw0bhZ4wPe




random101
VIC, 90 posts
24 Jan 2018 4:59PM
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So I got my board and foil today. It's a beginner set up which I'm happy to use and abuse.

Board quailty is about (8.5/10) board doesn't have any concave underneath but that should worry me as a begginer.

foils (7/10).

The issue I have is they put no holes in the mast to attach the base plate - and some real poor finishing (or postage damage).











random101
VIC, 90 posts
25 Jan 2018 10:03PM
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Well after much dremoling, I finally got it into the base plate... super tight fit, but now there is a bit of play so I'll need to fasten it with some screws.

What will I'll be the best way to sink the screws into the mast?

It it was a complete pain getting it together took a lot of work and red rolling of holes...

also relatevily (not sure as to what but feels like it's a sold 7-10kg)




Also feel free to comment if I should have the base forward or back?

weebitbreezy
482 posts
25 Jan 2018 10:45PM
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**Start with the foil at the rear most point. Move it forwards cm by cm until you have a nice balanced foot pressure when riding. Ride long tacks and assess leg fatigue. Move the foil the opposite direction to which leg is burning (note: Do runs on both tacks just to check its not your technique on one side)

Mark that point. Presto! Perfect alignment. Will probably take several sessions to get it dialled in to the mm.

** Note this applies to riders that can consistently ride the foil. If you have never used a foil before. Start with it at the back and only start moving it forwards once you can ride on the surface consistently.

airsail
QLD, 472 posts
26 Jan 2018 5:26AM
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I think the base and mast are only supplied seperate for shipping, you will need to bond it together. Alloy masts and plates can be seperate but not carbon, too much load in this area. Someone posted in a thread on kiteforum that he asked the factory to assemble and bond this area for him.

random101
VIC, 90 posts
26 Jan 2018 8:51AM
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I was thinking about it last night... I'll just dump a heap of epoxy in it and secure that way.

Positioning the base plate was a real pain only one plate went in "easily" the rest I had to beat in place took a good while to do... sure I probably could of machined the metal plates down a fraction (which I did on two but t was still a pain).

random101
VIC, 90 posts
26 Jan 2018 9:30AM
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On that note, it either wobbled forward or wobbled back. I thought forward felt better but rear was perpendicular to the base plate so I've set it 'back' so it's perpendicular to the base plate(y) not sure how much it matters but it's done haha.

steve_worm
NSW, 23 posts
8 Feb 2018 9:13PM
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Has this foil been in the water? How did it go?

I ended up getting the Slingshot Hover Glide.....good balance of reputable quality but not too expensive. I've no doubt the GoFoil is delightful....but for my first one and $800 more it was just not in the budget.

Only had 2 sessions though so a fair laearing curve ahead still.....

OceanAddicts
QLD, 351 posts
Site Sponsor
9 Feb 2018 10:03AM
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Hey guys,

Just my 2 cents.

I'm sure it depends on the supplier in china (so do your research) but i have a mate that purchased two Chinese foils. Yes he saved the dollars but unfortunately he wont be able to foil on them. Both of the front wings have neutral foil so wont provide lift from the profile. Also when fully assembled they do wobbly quite significantly. One of them looked identical to the Naish surf foil from above, but had a profile that was 10 mm thick with neutral foil.

He intends to SUP foil which he wont be able to do on them but they may work as a kite foil.

If you do plan on purchasing from China and not supporting some Australian businesses (yes i understand not all profits stay in Australia) then please research thoroughly so you don't get burnt too and end up spending more then what you would if you bought in Aus. I also understand there is a price point for everyone too so don't interpret this as an attack.

Cheers,

Ryan

tibi
NSW, 41 posts
17 Feb 2018 12:02PM
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Would this be a windfoil as well?

DakineFoilGuy
1 posts
12 Mar 2018 5:46PM
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Funny......the china made foil is actually the real takuma foil......its the exact same foil with out the logo......and yes the real takuma foil is made in china too.....and comes with a red logo......

I have kited about 200+ hours on this foil.......and yes it is awesome!

There are 3 mast lengths for this foil....small, medium and large.......the medium size mast is the best for wave riding....the small mast is only for learning......

Very good foil.....yes it is slow...but with slow means....very stable....and it matches the speed of the waves.......people who say its slow....are kiters who have ridden much faster.....foils.......fast is NOT good when you are learning......

Slow is good for learning.....and even if you think this is a slow foil....there is still the need for an impact vest...to protect the ribs when you hit the water hard......the takuma is just the right speed to learn

If you ride down the line on a wave...this foil actually speeds up alot.......no idea why.....but the foil does have one speed for kiting around in the flats.....but when you jump on a wave....and start really riding the energy of the wave......somehow...the speed kinda kicks in a whole different level.....why.......? No idea......but this is from hours and hours of riding down the line....

Pistol_pete
NSW, 9 posts
13 Mar 2018 5:31PM
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jamesperth said..
Another Alibaba option. Have to buy 10 to get the $338 USD advertised price.







Hi James

are these still available from Alibaba, did you or anyone end up bringing in 10 or more.

Regards
peter

Brohan
VIC, 521 posts
16 Mar 2018 6:35PM
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Pistol_pete said..

jamesperth said..
Another Alibaba option. Have to buy 10 to get the $338 USD advertised price.







Hi James

are these still available from Alibaba, did you or anyone end up bringing in 10 or more.

Regards
peter


If you go to Aliexpress you can buy them and there's no limit for how many you have to buy, just search for hydro foil. It's kinda sketchy though....

Trenttdk
11 posts
16 Mar 2018 7:08PM
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I worked in China for awhile so have some experience with Alibaba. It's a lot less dodgy now than it used to be, but you still have to be really sceptical of everything and everyone.
As Brohan says, you can search for hydrofoil and get heaps of results. If you go to Alibaba and select 'suppliers' on the left side of the search box, that will help you cut out some of the middlemen. Everyone on the site claims to be a factory but most are just re-sellers. You can go to the company's site and sort of work out whether they're a producer or not. There are a few types of foils most are selling. Once you've decided roughly what you want you and registered on the site, you can open a Request For Quotation (RFQ). You'll then get heaps of replies and offers. Several companies will sell you one piece and ship to Australia for around $100USD. When it comes time to pay, I STRONGLY advise against using Western Union or T/T (bank transfer). PayPal or escrow are much better. I'm considering an order so if anyone is interested in a group purchase reply here or send me a PM.

juandesooka
382 posts
17 Mar 2018 12:41PM
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Good tips. Also request they send you a photo of what you're buying. Their sites post multiple models, then when you inquire, there is only one ... which may not be included in the ones posted. I got my Ch-akuma and was very happy with the deal. But I probably wouldn't have risked it without a first hand report of someone blazing the trail before me.

Trenttdk
11 posts
17 Mar 2018 12:45PM
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This is the foil I'm looking at. Any thoughts?

juandesooka
382 posts
18 Mar 2018 12:53AM
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pretty sexy carbon foil there. :-) I am not an expert on these, but doesn't appear to be any of the obvious flaws that we've seen in other photos in this thread. Assume it's a copy/clone of a current foil ... how does it compare against them?

Sure would be nice to have a first hand report to know it's legit. You could ask them for a reference / testimonial from a happy customer maybe? (ideally with contact info so you can verify) Kinda doubt they'll give you this info, but may be worth a try.

[and a general note on alibaba/aliexpress: with how many horror stories there are out there with problem sellers, the legit ones would be smart to post these themselves....eg I'd be happy to provide a reference on the one that worked for me; I suspect ali would not put in place a feedback system for the entire site, as the illegitimate sellers would be put out of business]

Brohan
VIC, 521 posts
18 Mar 2018 1:55PM
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Select to expand quote
Trenttdk said..
I worked in China for awhile so have some experience with Alibaba. It's a lot less dodgy now than it used to be, but you still have to be really sceptical of everything and everyone.
As Brohan says, you can search for hydrofoil and get heaps of results. If you go to Alibaba and select 'suppliers' on the left side of the search box, that will help you cut out some of the middlemen. Everyone on the site claims to be a factory but most are just re-sellers. You can go to the company's site and sort of work out whether they're a producer or not. There are a few types of foils most are selling. Once you've decided roughly what you want you and registered on the site, you can open a Request For Quotation (RFQ). You'll then get heaps of replies and offers. Several companies will sell you one piece and ship to Australia for around $100USD. When it comes time to pay, I STRONGLY advise against using Western Union or T/T (bank transfer). PayPal or escrow are much better. I'm considering an order so if anyone is interested in a group purchase reply here or send me a PM.



I bought something off Aliexpress can't remember what but it was around $10-$20. I paid and forgot about it, a few weeks later I went to see what was happening with it so I logged in only to discover no order had been place and there was no history of me buying the item. I sent in a dispute and it seemed like they were going to refund me but then randomly a week later the item arrived. Still nothing on my account to say I bought it though this is why I am a bit hesitant in spending $500+ on a foil.



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"Cheap Chineese Carbon Foil" started by cbulota